# WTF is the stupid outrage over "Oriental" about? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 22, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163 "2014-10-22T17:47:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/221 "2014-11-03T02:41:55Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > You strike me here as like an overeager young student missing the point. says the guy posting four times in a row with line-by-line rebuttals. Thanks for the feedback. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/222 "2014-11-03T02:50:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I am sorry for you that your wife has kept her ethnicity from you, and you have to use some sort of generic regionalism when describing her to others. Some marriages are like that, I guess. Oh, sweet screaming _Haplorhini,_ are you one of those people who doesn’t believe “fish” exist? Do you really not get what he meant? I mean, in a world where people call Black Africans in Africa “African-Americans,” it’s possible you don’t! > [@septimus](#): > > I didn’t make _that_ claim. I _do_ claim that I’m not a racist. In all seriousness, whatever my offenses might be, does anyone here really think any of my posts here constitute real evidence that I’m a racist? Don’t ask me, I’m a notorious anti-Semite. I can’t tell these things. > [@MrDibble](#): > > For what it’s worth, no, I don’t think _you’re_ a racist from your posts in this thread. But what I’m trying to point out to you, is that you’re using the same language as one - the same “Some of my friends/family are X” justifications, the same “Why do I have to change my language because they’re offended” excuses…you may not be a racist, but you’re certainly using, invested in retaining, or defending using racist language. Oh, open your ears and shut your yap. He lives in the Far East (from context it sounds like Japan, but I seem to remember from previous threads it’s actually somewhere around Thailand), _you sheltered self-important pseudo-bougie Yank moron._ > [@pulykamell](#): > > I personally use the term “South Asian” for Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, and Nepal. Vietnam, Malaysia, and Indonesia is Southeast Asian, as far as I’ve always used the term. Burma can go either way. Turkmenistan I’ve always put in the Central Asian countries. (And, yes, I actually do use these terms in speech and writing, especially talking about food, one of my hobbies, but also because I deal with the South Asian community a good bit.) This is pretty much my experience of the terms. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Just another passing reminder how lame, ineffectual and ultimately offensive it is for outsiders to tell members of an ethnic group what should or shouldn’t offend them. > > A hard lesson for some to learn - but ultimately rewarding. 🙂 Well, yes? But the corollary is that sometimes you have to offend people and accept it. Because they are emotionally tied to stupid self-definitions. I understand why my (tiny) Chinese (very tiny) friend insists that she does not look Japanese—“Japanese people are short!” she says—and there are reasons of both regional and personal history there. Misinterpreting the meaning of “Oriental” in the mouth of someone who didn’t come from a part of North America with a strong history of anti-Chinese sentiment? That’s a mild self-important ignorance. Insisting that one’s particularly ethnicity/party/nation/cult has TRUE SCIENCE and ARE GOD’S PARTICULAR FAVORITE CREATURES? Yeah, we may offend such a person in his self-importance, and be justified in doing so. Even if they are a POC, yes. But the other, milder cases are not exactly race crimes on the part of the “offensive,” nor malicious. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/223 "2014-11-03T02:52:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > says the guy posting four times in a row with line-by-line rebuttals. Thanks for the feedback. Did I mention sophomoric? Throw that in too. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/224 "2014-11-03T03:16:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Because it’s the level of granularity at which the commonalities are things like shared language and culture, rather than superficialities like physical appearance.Of course we can. And that’s _always_ preferable. > > Or serves to hide differences behind a veneer of commonality - do you think the Chinese and Japanese American experiences are at all similar? Did Japanese work on the railways? Were Chinese interned in WWII? Or that either compares to the Hmong experience?I can only think it’s useful for lazy reasons - censuses, stereotyping, racial profiling - that kind of thing. There’s no real reason we can’t use finer granularity for any everyday data-using purpose, we have sufficient computing power to handle millions of categories for any real data. I understand that the Japanese experience in North America was different from the Chinese experience, and the Chinese experience different between Appalachia, California, and Hawai’i, and different depending on whether one lived in a Chinatown or not, and different in different eras… Sometimes that level of granularity is not what we have. Are you actually me at eight years old, when I couldn’t understand why anyone would estimate in maths? > [@Acsenray](#): > > This is what comes down to, right? > > Who is Paul? He’s that white guy who sits next to the copier. > > Who is Dawayne? He’s that black guy who sits next to the water cooler. > > Who is Chang? He’s that yellow-skinned, slanty-eyed guy who sits next to the pantry. > > The folks who want to keep “Oriental” as a valid descriptor want it because they need that term to fill out the options for race-based categories. You mean Paul, the blotchy pink guy with the tall nose and tiny nostrils; Dawayne, the nappy-headed darkie; and Chang, the handsome yellow dude? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Note that we don’t do this lumping of European ethnicities. “He’s European” would never be considered granular enough of a descriptor to nail down someone in one’s head. This is untrue, _even in Europe._ It depends on what level of “granularity” the speakers intend to discuss. > [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Chicago is a notoriously racist town. Clearly we need to ask someone in Barranquilla what term they use. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Wait, are we actually ignorant of the idea that terms like “Japanese” can be both indicators of nationality or citizenship but also be indicators of ethnicity that include some people that do not fit under the first definition and exclude some who do? Apparently Mr Dibble is. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/225 "2014-11-03T03:25:53Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Did I mention sophomoric? Throw that in too. Appreciated as always! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/226 "2014-11-03T03:31:32Z")
I need to apologize to **MrDibble**. I assumed he was both white and a Yank—terms that must be confusingly ungranular to him. I forgot that he was our resident proud Cape Colored of um, Khoekhoe descent? Yeah. And despite calling **LHoD** sophomoric, I agree with him in the argument with **MrDibble**. So there you go. I agree with OP. Some people are just pissy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/227 "2014-11-03T06:05:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So what? What the hell is your point that there “could have been”? That’s totally beside the point. No it isn’t. Maybe if this was a thread about “ **LHoD** ’s local meetings” it would be beside the point, but it’s not. The point is that you give one specific anecdote (“this one time, grouping by race only was OK”) and expect it to counter a general principle (“Don’t group people by race”) and I was pointing out that no, it doesn’t counter it because the circumstances are not always like your home town. > [@](#): > > NOBODY SAID THERE COULD BE NO SURPRISES. You made that up. If they’d invited a black British dude, I would indeed have been surprised. But they did not. But you’d only know this when you heard them talk, not before, when the grouping was already decided. > [@](#): > > It’s probably true that greater than 95% of African Americans who went to high school in this town in 1970 had some similar experiences based on their race. The fact that there might have been a tiny minority of African Americans who didn’t have any particular experience in no way makes it impossible to discuss commonalities among experiences. You seem to think that extreme examples make it impossible to have any sort of discussion. No, it doesn’t make it impossible to have the conversation. But it does give the lie to assigning people to racial groupings before addressing them as individuals, which is what I object to. > [@](#): > > For the same reason that I can say that a chair is something you sit on, despite the existence of dollhouse chairs. If a single exception negates the ability to use a generality in discussion, then language itself dissolves. If we were talking about single exceptions, I’d be all with you. But we’re not, we’re talking about \*millions \*of people. > [@](#): > > In some circumstances, of course it is. Otherwise, society literally collapses. Can I not talk about what Republicans are doing? Can I not talk about how Google employees behave? Can I not talk about what women experience walking down the street? Can I not talk about the insane pedantry of Dopers? You can - but you’d be stereotyping all the same. _And that’s fine_. I _agree_ we can’t have many conversations without doing so. But you have to acknowledge up front that that’s what you’re doing, and that addressing individual concerns is superior. > [@](#): > > We talk about such things acknowledging exceptions. Errm, no, you \*didn’t \*acknowledge any exceptions in your initial post. If you had started out that way, we wouldn’t be having this argument at all. > [@](#): > > You made this up. I said no such thing. Here’s what I said: “categorizing the speakers by race was absolutely appropriate” is an exact quote from you. If there were exceptions, how would it be an appropriate categorization? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/228 "2014-11-03T06:16:59Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Oh, sweet screaming _Haplorhini,_ are you one of those people who doesn’t believe “fish” exist? As a amusing folk relic or a name for something on my plate, sure, fish exist. As a meaningful scientific classification, no, fish don’t exist. > [@](#): > > Do you really not get what he meant? I “get” what he means, I just don’t agree with the usage. > [@](#): > > Oh, open your ears and shut your yap. He lives in the Far East (from context it sounds like Japan, but I seem to remember from previous threads it’s actually somewhere around Thailand), Gosh, and no-one in Asia is ever racist towards other Asians or sounds like it… > [@](#): > > _you sheltered self-important pseudo-bougie Yank moron._ HA ha ha! Idiot. Subsequent apology noted, but idiot all the same. > [@](#): > > I understand that the Japanese experience in North America was different from the Chinese experience, and the Chinese experience different between Appalachia, California, and Hawai’i, and different depending on whether one lived in a Chinatown or not, and different in different eras… > > Sometimes that level of granularity is not what we have. Where the everliving fuck, in the modern world, do we not have that level of granularity? We’re not observing people in the wild and having to make random stabs at their ethnicities, here. We can always just ask (if it’s even relevant, which, most of the time, it really, _really_ isn’t). > [@](#): > > This is untrue, even in Europe. It depends on what level of “granularity” the speakers intend to discuss. In terms of discussing a given individual ethnicity. I’d love some examples of where this happens in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/229 "2014-11-03T11:54:56Z")
**Mr Dibble** , if I want to have the conversation talking about tendencies of folks with different racial identifications to have different experiences, I can say something like, > [@](#): > > In 1970, Lee Edwards High School was closed down, and black students moved to the previously all-white high school. Their teachers moved with them, but over the course of several years, they saw black teachers disproportionately fired and white teachers disproportionately retained; as a result, few black students have any teachers living in their neighborhoods any more, and few black students come to school to be taught by teachers who look like them. If I go by your level of granularity, the individual, I can’t talk about how racism has affected our community’s schools. Instead, I need to say that same paragraph, taking out references to black and white, for each individual student who went to Lee Edwards High School, something like this: > [@](#): > > In 1970, Lee Edwards High School was closed down, and Rolanda Abernathy moved to Asheville High school. Her teachers moved with her, but over the course of several years, she saw her teachers disproportionately fired and teachers who had been at Asheville High School prior to the move disproportionately retained; as a result, she did not have any teachers living in her neighborhood any more, and she did not come to school to be taught by teachers who look like her. > > In 1970, Lee Edwards High School was closed down, and Sarah Allen moved to Asheville High school. Her teachers moved with her, but over the course of several years, she saw her teachers disproportionately fired and teachers who had been at Asheville High School prior to the move disproportionately retained; as a result, she did not have any teachers living in her neighborhood any more, and she did not come to school to be taught by teachers who look like her. > > In 1970, Lee Edwards High School was closed down, and Charlotte Atkinson moved to Asheville High school. Her teachers moved with her, but over the course of several years, she saw her teachers disproportionately fired and teachers who had been at Asheville High School prior to the move disproportionately retained; as a result, she did not have any teachers living in her neighborhood any more, and she did not come to school to be taught by teachers who look like her. and so on through the alphabet. Tell me again how your level of granularity facilitates discussion and understanding? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/230 "2014-11-03T23:05:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > As a amusing folk relic or a name for something on my plate, sure, fish exist. > As a meaningful scientific classification, no, fish don’t exist. You admit it. Bad understanding of the applicability of cladistic and non-cladistic classification claims another brain. By this logic, “foreigner” is meaningless (because everyone is a citizen of a specific country somewhere, not “the Land of Foreigntia”), and so is “colored” when referring to fabric (because it must be a given color or pattern, yes?), and so forth. > [@](#): > > We can always just ask (if it’s even relevant, which, most of the time, it really, _really_ isn’t). You don’t get epistemology, or you don’t get the limitations of human opportunities (and manners). Sometimes _a person_ doesn’t have that information, _even though the information exists._ Sometimes that person had no chance (or no socially acceptable chance) to ask. > [@](#): > > In terms of discussing a given individual ethnicity. I’d love some examples of where this happens in Europe. I dare you to try entering South Africa into Eurovision, and then listen to why you can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/231 "2014-11-04T06:40:13Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > _There are visual differences between Korean and Japanese people?_ Sometimes; \*very, very \*slight. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/232 "2014-11-04T08:36:16Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > You admit it. Bad understanding of the applicability of cladistic and non-cladistic classification claims another brain. Cladistic wins out, every time. Non-cladists can suck it (for animal classification. Plant classification is a mess. Don’t even talk to me about bacteria) . > [@](#): > > By this logic, “foreigner” is meaningless Meaningless, no. Context is, of course, king. Like I said, I find “fish” a perfectly meaningful category for certain uses. > [@](#): > > “colored” when referring to fabric (because it must be a given color or pattern, yes?) NAaah, “colored” fits perfectly fine in a cladistic framework. > [@](#): > > You don’t get epistemology, or you don’t get the limitations of human opportunities (and manners). No. I disagree that the limits are a matter of practicality vs ingrained resistance to doing the right thing. > [@](#): > > Sometimes _a person_ doesn’t have that information, _even though the information exists._ Sometimes that person had no chance (or no socially acceptable chance) to ask. IME, most of the time, “that person” has no need to include ethnicity in their characterization of a person in the first place. There are very few instances where knowledge of another person’s ethnicity is necessary at all. > [@](#): > > I dare you to try entering South Africa into Eurovision, and then listen to why you can’t. Eurovision is an ethnicity-based competition now? And here I thought it was nationalistic. But I guess it must be ethnically-restricted - I mean, just look at how Herrenvolkisch [this former contestant](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Jessica_Wahls_of_No_Angels.jpg) is… or, IOW, how does that response address my point in any way? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/233 "2014-11-04T16:58:44Z")
I give up, you’re an insane pedant. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/234 "2014-11-05T01:43:11Z")
I think the main problem here is that the two main sides in this current debate ( **MrDibble** ’s and **LHoD** ’s with other posters) aren’t actually opposing – and thus butting heads – but are coming from two completely different approaches – and thus just moving past each other. This is why it’s possible for me to feel that both sides have valid arguments. **MrDibble** seems to be arguing from a more theoretical or ideal point of view, while **LHoD** is coming from a more practical or pragmatic POV. The concept of distinct and separate races is total bullshit, as **MrDibble** has explained – quite eloquently – in many threads here. Race is not a biological construct\* but a social one, which is why racism/racial bigotry is baseless and unjustifiable. But I’m pretty sure that **LHoD** agrees with that. His argument (IMHO) instead focuses on the current reality and its negative impacts. People _do_ insist on classifying people into races and people _are_ racist. Do they have any rational, legitimate, or valid base/reason? No. But _that doesn’t change the fact that they think they do_. And it doesn’t change the fact that people are directly harmed and oppressed as a result. Someone who wants to help society\*\* progress needs to deal with the reality of how things _are_ and work within that context. You can’t effectively solve a problem when you don’t know (or don’t look at) the actions that caused the problem in the first place. - For many reasons, such as: there is more genetic variation within one “race” than across different races; there is no universal consensus of what the different races are or who belongs to each; even within a single culture, what race a person is considered to be can (and has) changed over time, and so on. \*\* **LHoD** does have a US focus, but I think it is entirely sensible considering his approach. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/235 "2014-11-05T03:07:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > As the sort-of-target of the OP, I would just like to point out that: > (1) I am not outraged. > (2) Except at **Yogsosoth** , who needs to shut the fuck up. ;p That’s mean. I haven’t said anything that bad, nor have I done anything to warrant that. If your post was just a result of the magnified aggression people have in the Pit, then I can forgive that, but really, what I said is curiously annoying, at worst, and something most people do a few times when they get lazy and refuse to admit it, at best. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/236 "2014-11-05T05:28:09Z")
Most people stop refusing to admit it after, like, three posts. You virtually hijacked the thread defending the stupid thing you said. If you didn’t know better I wouldn’t have mentioned it at all. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/237 "2014-11-05T09:18:59Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > **MrDibble** seems to be arguing from a more theoretical or ideal point of view, while **LHoD** is coming from a more practical or pragmatic POV. That might well be the case. I am saying this is how I want the world to be, but I’m also saying this is how I act today, this is how anyone _can_ act today. So it’s not strictly theoretical. I know where the current problems are, believe me. But I don’t agree working inside that system of thought is the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/238 "2014-11-05T11:51:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That might well be the case. I am saying this is how I want the world to be, but I’m also saying this is how I act today, this is how anyone _can_ act today. So it’s not strictly theoretical. > > I know where the current problems are, believe me. But I don’t agree working inside that system of thought is the answer. If I acknowledge that plenty of people are born-again Christians, I’m not working within that system of thought. Nor am I working within the system of thought of Randians, Stalinists, or homeopathists to describe how they view the world and the effect their views have had on people. But in order to describe those effects accurately, I have to be willing to talk about groups, not individuals, because the effects of those flawed worldviews have affected millions of people, and I don’t have time to talk about each person individually. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/239 "2014-11-05T12:55:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t have time to talk about each person individually. That’s the problem there - we _never_ seem to, don’t we? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/240 "2014-11-05T13:02:18Z")
ETA, on this: > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If I acknowledge that plenty of people are born-again Christians, I’m not working within that system of thought. Nor am I working within the system of thought of Randians, Stalinists, or homeopathists to describe how they view the world and the effect their views have had on people. You _can’t_ group people by race/ethnicity and not be working in a race/ethnicity-based system of thought, though. By using the groups, you’re participating. There is no “observer stance” there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163.md?page=13)