# WTF is the stupid outrage over "Oriental" about? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 22, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163 "2014-10-22T17:47:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/81 "2014-10-23T11:11:26Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Actually, I think Said was Palestinian, and the Arabic-speaking peoples of the Levant – the “Near East” (!) – were definitely part of the world that was “exoticized” by Europeans. The Ottoman Empire, basically, was the focus of “Orientalism” as much as China or Japan. True, by the mid-20th C., the word “oriental” had come to mean just East Asian. And here’s where I note the original meaning of “Asia”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/82 "2014-10-23T12:16:03Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Actually, I think Said was Palestinian, and the Arabic-speaking peoples of the Levant – the “Near East” (!) – were definitely part of the world that was “exoticized” by Europeans. I know all that - hence my (sarcastic) post. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/83 "2014-10-23T15:07:35Z")
I’ll offer a deal: If people here stop using “Paki” then we’ll stop using “Oriental” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/84 "2014-10-23T15:10:53Z")
Reference: [If "Paki" is acceptable to use then what other slurs are? Nigger? Spic? Homo? Jap? - About This Message Board - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=658693) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/85 "2014-10-23T15:15:34Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Do scientists apologize for a hypothesis that failed? I wasn’t aware that scientists frequently do things where they proudly state that they haven’t paid attention to previous research because who has time to read anymore these days? The reason what you’re doing is unreasonable is that you’re acting like Fox News. You see a couple trigger words, fire off some half-assed opinion, and come up with bullshit reasons why you shouldn’t care about things like “context” or “facts.” ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/86 "2014-10-23T15:43:19Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > The word “Oriental” seems to assume that us “Far East” people can all be lumped into one category. Anyone who knows anything about Asian history knows that we all hate each other and find it insulting to be considered anything like our neighbors, thankyouverymuch. I’m not sure how Asian is more useful than Oriental for that purpose. I’m not sure if your hate each other argument is too convincing for a lumper either. Look at Europe. A whole continent of pasty white people and they still find ways to divide themselves up and kill each other. > [@aruvqan](#): > > Sorry, I am not calling my Chinese born and NOT a citizen of the US Auntie Bei Ching ‘Chinese-American’ thanks. That was a modified quote from the Big Lebowski. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/87 "2014-10-23T16:32:51Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > For the record, “oriental” is considered a Euro-centric word, that is, it describes something respecting it’s relationship to the once-dominant European cultures (i.e. you get there by heading east from Europe). Well, you don’t get to East Asia (which is a correct geographic description) by heading east from most places any more. And harking back to a time when everything was Euro-centric, when Europe did its best to impose its culture and values on the rest of the world because they were “better” and “more civilized”, might be considered condescending or belittling, even by people who are not directly referenced by the term. This criticism makes no sense. Directions such as east and west are necessarily relative and you have to define a meridian as the centre point if you’re going to use them. We could make it less Eurocentric if we really wanted, but then it would be somethingelsecentric instead. Whether or not you head east from every point on Earth to reach East Asia is irrelevant to whether or not Asia is considered to be in the east. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/88 "2014-10-23T16:38:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I didn’t have an issue with you before, but now that I know you’re a smug lazy idiot, I guess I do. So what would you like me to do, keeping in mind that I don’t see the smugness and I disagree with the idiot part because I feel I’m justified in doing what I did? I am lazy though > [@Ravenman](#): > > I wasn’t aware that scientists frequently do things where they proudly state that they haven’t paid attention to previous research because who has time to read anymore these days? Like I said, people would get the analogy wrong. The point isn’t that I skimmed through his posts, the point was that I behaved according to a hypothesis I felt was valid. Given a set of actions you’re fairly sure has sufficient justification, if you behaved according to that justification, and you turned out factually wrong, so what? You didn’t do it on purpose, and with different facts you’d alter your behavior. I’d only apologize if I willfully did something wrong, and skipping part of a post doesn’t rise to that level because everything his topic told me pointed in one direction. So the most you can say is that I was tricked. I’m not apologizing for that > [@Ravenman](#): > > The reason what you’re doing is unreasonable is that you’re acting like Fox News. You see a couple trigger words, fire off some half-assed opinion, and come up with bullshit reasons why you shouldn’t care about things like “context” or “facts.” Eww, don’t compare me to them. Fox News is purposefully lying, doing it to bend a desired political outcome based on their intractable personal biases. I see words that usually point to one context and responded. I noticed nobody’s replied to my holocaust analogy. If you see someone’s thread title as “Holocause: real or fake?” you’d probably already have an idea of the type of person that is, I dare you to tell me otherwise. Same thing with this thread title, it points to someone who thinks “Oriental” isn’t an offensive slur. Substitute it for any number of slurs and you’d get my mindset after looking at the post. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/89 "2014-10-23T16:44:30Z")
Even if you read nothing more than a thread title, you are certainly justified in forming an opinion about the poster and topic. We all do that. But if you decide to participate in a thread, I think you owe it to the rest of the participants to be a little better informed about the details of the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/90 "2014-10-23T16:56:53Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > So what would you like me to do, keeping in mind that I don’t see the smugness and I disagree with the idiot part because I feel I’m justified in doing what I did? I am lazy though. I’d have you shut up in any case where you don’t read the whole thread before responding. Your opinions are not so scintillating and enlightening and goddamned important that everyone MUST hear them, and if you can’t be bothered to read what others say, do us the courtesy of not expecting us to read what you say. I know I’ve said this before, but it surprises nobody that you didn’t read it the first time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/91 "2014-10-23T17:02:20Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > May I start a thread in BBQ Pit instead? > > First, Wikipedia offers an even weaker claim than Colibri: > Dictionaries are divided, but some allow the word: > : _Every_racial term is considered by some to be derogatory,. I knew a young black woman, who got irate when called “Black”: " I am _not_ black, I am a lovely shade of mocha!" So, saying “xxxx is considered by some to be derogatory” is weak sauce indeed. Thus, we cant use: Balck African American Negro (pretty dated, but there’ still the UNCF) or any term. ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/92 "2014-10-23T17:09:24Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > This all seems silly to me. I knew a white guy whose mother was American and father from North Africa, but people were horrified when he called himself “African-American.” My Brazilian wife’s cousin moved to South Africa many years ago, married, and had a boy with blond hair, blue eyes, and totally white skin. I get a kick out of knowing that this fellow is a true first-generation African-American, through and through. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/93 "2014-10-23T17:11:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _Every_racial term is considered by some to be derogatory,. I knew a young black woman, who got irate when called “Black”: " I am _not_ black, I am a lovely shade of mocha!" > > So, saying “xxxx is considered by some to be derogatory” is weak sauce indeed. > > Thus, we cant use: > Balck > African American > Negro (pretty dated, but there’ still the UNCF) > or any term. If that’s the only way you know how to interpret it, then go for it. Those of us with common sense manage to successfully avoid such extreme interpretations. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/94 "2014-10-23T17:21:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _Every_racial term is considered by some to be derogatory,. I knew a young black woman, who got irate when called “Black”: " I am _not_ black, I am a lovely shade of mocha!" How did she refer to white people? > [@](#): > > Thus, we cant use: > Balck > African American > Negro (pretty dated, but there’ still the UNCF) > or any term. So how do \*you \*refer to them, and if so, why? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/95 "2014-10-23T17:25:47Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > How did she refer to white people? > > So how do \*you \*refer to them, and if so, why? People. People. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/96 "2014-10-23T17:35:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > So how do \*you \*refer to them, and if so, why? > [@DrDeth](#): > > People. > > People. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I knew a young **black** woman… (Bolding mine) :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/97 "2014-10-23T18:07:41Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Even if you read nothing more than a thread title, you are certainly justified in forming an opinion about the poster and topic. We all do that. But if you decide to participate in a thread, I think you owe it to the rest of the participants to be a little better informed about the details of the discussion. My ignorance in the title would have been limited to a couple of posts but I was called out by someone else so I felt I should respond. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’d have you shut up in any case where you don’t read the whole thread before responding. Your opinions are not so scintillating and enlightening and goddamned important that everyone MUST hear them, and if you can’t be bothered to read what others say, do us the courtesy of not expecting us to read what you say. Well I can certainly make more of an effort to read things through, but I won’t stop posting if I don’t because like I contend: everybody does it and I had good reason to do it. Maybe I’ll be less honest about it since that apparently rankles you. I noticed you still haven’t addressed my assertion that everyone does it, either you don’t believe that or you want it to go away so people will think I have less of a reason to do what I did. If you care, that bothers me, probably moreso than what I did bothers you. Either have the grace to address an issue or admit you’re wrong, but people who dodge questions and pretend like nothing’s wrong are much worse, in my opinion, than someone like me who is occasionally lazy about a post. Like I said to Troutman above, my ignorance would have been limited to a couple posts once I found out what I did, but it bothered you so much that you had to respond, sparking this whole argument. So if you’re going to keep talking about how it bothers you, maybe you can tell me how you apparently manage to never form an opinion on a thread by its thread title no matter what it is and have never skipped any text in any post you have ever replied to ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/98 "2014-10-23T18:15:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’d have you shut up in any case where you don’t read the whole thread before responding. I think this sentence is about nine words too long. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/99 "2014-10-23T18:27:21Z")
> [@Nema98](#): > > I don’t know, I would have my eyebrows raised if someone was referred to as oriental. I realize “Oriental” is an outdated term, but is getting plastic surgery really an appropriate response? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/100 "2014-10-23T18:31:20Z")
“Oriental” just means “Eastern”. It’s not inherently problematic to refer to “Easterners” or “Asians”, and more than it is to talk about “Westerners” or “The West” or “Europe”. That said, it does have an old-timey feel to it. It’s like when my mother in law mentions she met a lovely black woman yesterday. Yes, she noticed the woman’s race, and it’s not offensive to notice someone’s race, and she’s not prejudiced against the person because of her race. It just sounds wrong though, because it essentializes her race. I mean, she could talk about the lovely blonde woman she met yesterday, but she probably wouldn’t put it that way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163.md?page=6)