# WTF is the stupid outrage over "Oriental" about? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 22, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163 "2014-10-22T17:47:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/101 "2014-10-23T18:31:40Z")
Since the mid-1980s, I haven’t run into a single person of Asian origin who finds the term “Oriental” acceptable. (My best friend has a whole rant she uses when someone calls her “Oriental”.) I work in IT, so I know a pretty good cross-section of people from various Asian countries. No one’s going to stop anyone from saying “Oriental”, and they might not tell someone that they are being a douche if they do it repeatedly, but people will certainly think it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/102 "2014-10-23T18:55:02Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > “Oriental” just means “Eastern”. It’s not inherently problematic to refer to “Easterners” or “Asians”, and more than it is to talk about “Westerners” or “The West” or “Europe”. It’s not inherently problematic, it’s _historically_ problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/103 "2014-10-23T18:55:21Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I noticed you still haven’t addressed my assertion that everyone does it, either you don’t believe that or you want it to go away so people will think I have less of a reason to do what I did. If you care, that bothers me, probably moreso than what I did bothers you. Either have the grace to address an issue or admit you’re wrong, but people who dodge questions and pretend like nothing’s wrong are much worse, in my opinion, than someone like me who is occasionally lazy about a post. You gotta be kidding me. No, moron, everybody DOESN’T do it. And most of the folks who do it have the good grace to be ashamed and try to do better next time, and nobody else who does it makes the sort of smug excuses for it that you’re doing. > [@](#): > > So if you’re going to keep talking about how it bothers you, maybe you can tell me how you apparently manage to never form an opinion on a thread by its thread title no matter what it is and have never skipped any text in any post you have ever replied to Fertheloveofchrist, that’s not what I said. I certainly form opinions based on thread titles. BUT THEN I READ THE THREAD, and I only respond if, AFTER READING THE THREAD, I think I have an informed opinion that matters. And no, I don’t skip over text in posts I reply to, why the hell would I be so simultaneously lazy and arrogant as to do that? If I did do it, it would be accidental, and if someone pointed out that I’d missed something important, I’d apologize. (For what it’s worth, I didn’t miss something important in my failure to respond to your “but everybody does it!” whine; rather, it was such a pitiful excuse for an excuse that I didn’t plan on dignifying it with a response.) ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/104 "2014-10-23T19:02:08Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I’d only apologize if I willfully did something wrong, and skipping part of a post doesn’t rise to that level because everything his topic told me pointed in one direction. So the most you can say is that I was tricked. I’m not apologizing for that No one cares if you skim posts. It’s only a thing if you make comments without reading the thread. That’s uncouth. You weren’t tricked into responding without reading what you were responding to. And no, not everyone does it - and even if they did, it doesn’t excuse the behavior. And it really doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things, but do you really not understand why it’s expected you read what you are responding to? I do find the willful ignorance amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/105 "2014-10-23T19:17:05Z")
Them Orientals like voting for the Democrat Party! …and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/106 "2014-10-23T21:52:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ve never heard anyone use “Oriental” to refer to a person, and “Asian” generally is considered synonymous with “Indian” (and Pakistani) Huh. Is there a term in South Africa that encompasses Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Vietnamese/people from Laos/Cambodia, etc? (There doesn’t have to be: these are pretty different cultures after all.) Incidentally, I’ve heard of Koreans routinely referred to as Chinese in the US, but that was some time back. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/107 "2014-10-23T21:58:09Z")
> [@mage-girl](#): > > On a related note, I have been informed by my more-politically-correct friends that describing someone’s looks as “exotic” is rather offensive. > > I don’t–how–are we supposed to describe anyone anymore, without hurting someone’s feelings? 😕 It’s not really about political correctness. I’ve mentioned this on this board before, but calling someone “exotic” says much more about the speaker than it does about the subject. “Exotic” is relative to an extent that it is a useless descriptor without context. It does, however, give you insight into what the speaker’s sense of normal or average is. I am ethnically Japanese, born and raised in Hawaii. I am sure that when I’m in small Midwest or Southern towns, people look at me and think “exotic!” However, I am only exotic in places like that; back home, I am average. I am typical. I’d also blend in in parts of the East and West coasts. Anywhere there is a multicultural population, I am just a normal part of the scenery. By comparison, my Midwest-born ex, who was 6’+ tall, pale white-skinned, blond, and blue-eyed, was unusual when I took him back home to meet my parents. His family, as well as anyone who looks like that, would probably laugh at the idea his looks were exotic, but in Hawaii, he certainly was that. Based on what I’ve just written, even if you aren’t familiar with those places, you can probably make some inferences about Hawaii and the Midwest. Hawaii has lots of Asians and Caucasians aren’t common. The Midwest is full of Caucasians and Asian people aren’t common. You can sort of guess what might be considered “exotic” in both locations, but without that contextualization, it’s a very vague term. So how to describe people like me? Having grown up Asian and surrounded by Asian culture, it seems trivial for me to suggest, “Dark hair, yellow-undertoned skin, with almond-shaped brown eyes with an epicanthic fold.” However (and I really hope I don’t sound patronizing here, that’s not my intention), that type of description is probably really unnatural to anyone who isn’t Asian or isn’t a cosmetologist. It’s always going to be a potential minefield to describe someone’s appearance, so maybe the best way to approach it is to stick with factual observations rather than opinions: eye and hair color, height, skin coloring. Celebrity comparisons can work as well. “She reminds me of Lucy Liu,” works to convey that she’s Asian without saying anything unintentionally insensitive. As for the OP, I sort of agree with **HazelNutCoffee** , but on the other hand, people can be pretty terrible at trying to tell different Asian flavors apart, so maybe we ought to quit while we’re ahead. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/108 "2014-10-24T06:58:22Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Huh. Is there a term in South Africa that encompasses Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Vietnamese/people from Laos/Cambodia, etc? (There doesn’t have to be: these are pretty different cultures after all.) Nope/sorta. Chinese are called “Chinese”, Japanese are called “Japanese”, We don’t get many of the others here. But if you called either “Asian” no one would question it, it’s just that for historic reasons, “Asian” in common usage means “Subcontinental” as those were the vastly more numerous people from Asia in South Africa (not counting Muslims of Malaysian/Indonesian extraction, who still fall under “Coloured” and aren’t considered “Asian” at all. Chinese used to be considered legally Coloured as well, but aren’t “culturally” Coloured. Malays are.) Usage is changing over time, though, as we’re more exposed to how people are considered in, say, American media. Racial classification is dumb, yo. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/109 "2014-10-25T05:54:33Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Well I can certainly make more of an effort to read things through, but I won’t stop posting if I don’t because like I contend: everybody does it and I had good reason to do it. Maybe I’ll be less honest about it since that apparently rankles you. I noticed you still haven’t addressed my assertion that everyone does it, either you don’t believe that or you want it to go away so people will think I have less of a reason to do what I did. No, I seriously don’t do this and I really don’t understand why anyone would. I can see skimming later posts if you wanted to reply to just a minor thing (especially if it was a factual correction or a silly joke). But… I still go back to actually read them afterwards. But replying specifically to a poster’s argument or stance? WTF? What’s the _point_ to replying if you don’t even know what you’re replying to? What’s the _point_ of engaging in discussion or debate when you’re (purposefully!) not listening to the other participants? I’m seriously asking, here; I truly don’t get it. Does that mean when I think about replying and read all the existing posts, I end up not posting/replying after all? Lots of times, yeah.\* But so what? If I want to post just to say something, anything, without actually interacting with the thread, I should post it to my (nonexistent) blog or other social media accounts instead. - Compare my post count and join date to yours. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/110 "2014-10-25T07:48:44Z")
FWIW I’ve long since forgiven **YogSosoth** for his thoughtless intervention. It’s _de rigeur_ here, especially in the Pit, and I’ve done it myself. > [@zweisamkeit](#): > > If I want to post just to say something, anything, without actually interacting with the thread, I should post it to my (nonexistent) blog or other social media accounts instead. I’ve saved quite a few posts I’ve written where I ended up clicking Back instead of Submit. If the Mods give me advance warning before I’m BANNED, maybe I’ll post some of the most amusing to MPSIMS. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/111 "2014-10-25T13:14:42Z")
**YogSosoth** - there’s three things you’re not getting: first, there’s no glory in not reading. Second, a message board is like a book club. The whole premise is reading and then commenting. If someone joined a book club, and their method of participation was to go read Cliff’s Notes, see the movie, or just wing it based on what they’ve heard about the book, how welcoming do you think the other members would be? Finally, what do you expect others to do when someone commits a remarkable faux pas and doesn’t seem to realize it? This is like picking your nose in a big business meeting, hitting on the host’s wife at a party, or making a mess in someone’s bathroom and not cleaning it up. Saying, “I apologized for that incident, but everyone does those things and I’m going to keep doing anyway” doesn’t address the fact that people are trying to tell you that picking your nose in business meetings, trying to fuck someone wife, or peeing all over someone’s bathroom are simply not acceptable acts to begin with. The major problem here isn’t that you goofed up, it is the fact that you view very rude behavior as acceptable in polite company, which it simply isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Eddie\_F](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/22d042/32.png) [@Eddie\_F](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eddie_F)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/112 "2014-10-25T13:40:48Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Mussulmen. Okay, seriously? Who in all fuck still says this? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/113 "2014-10-25T13:48:18Z")
Dagon worshippers. They’re all about them [mussel-men](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_One). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/114 "2014-10-25T14:06:33Z")
> [@Eddie\_F](#): > > Okay, seriously? Who in all fuck still says this? It’s a pretty good transcription of the Hindi word for “Muslim” but I’ve never heard someone use it when speaking English. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/115 "2014-10-25T15:12:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > [P]eople are trying to tell you that picking your nose in business meetings, trying to fuck someone['s] wife, or peeing all over someone’s bathroom are simply not acceptable acts to begin with. George Costanza: [pause] Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing, because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here that that sort of thing is frowned upon… you know, cause I’ve worked in a lot of offices, and I tell you, people do that all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/116 "2014-10-25T17:13:58Z")
My wife is Chinese. I am not offended if someone calls her “Oriental.” She is not offended if someone calls her “Oriental.” People are _way_ too uptight… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/117 "2014-10-25T20:24:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s not inherently problematic, it’s _historically_ problematic. It’s like how there’s technically no reason why somebody who starts a sentence with “the blacks” cannot end it in a way that isn’t racist, and yet that never happens. Anybody who starts off a sentence with “the blacks” is _always_ going to be a racist grandma. Well, I suppose you can say “the blacks on my new high def TV set are really black!” But otherwise. “Oriental” is like that. There’s nothing inherent about it that makes it a slur, but only a certain kind of person uses it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/118 "2014-10-25T20:39:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > **YogSosoth** - there’s three things you’re not getting: first, there’s no glory in not reading. > > Second, a message board is like a book club. The whole premise is reading and then commenting. If someone joined a book club, and their method of participation was to go read Cliff’s Notes, see the movie, or just wing it based on what they’ve heard about the book, how welcoming do you think the other members would be? > > Finally, what do you expect others to do when someone commits a remarkable faux pas and doesn’t seem to realize it? This is like picking your nose in a big business meeting, hitting on the host’s wife at a party, or making a mess in someone’s bathroom and not cleaning it up. Saying, “I apologized for that incident, but everyone does those things and I’m going to keep doing anyway” doesn’t address the fact that people are trying to tell you that picking your nose in business meetings, trying to fuck someone wife, or peeing all over someone’s bathroom are simply not acceptable acts to begin with. The major problem here isn’t that you goofed up, it is the fact that you view very rude behavior as acceptable in polite company, which it simply isn’t. > [@zweisamkeit](#): > > George Costanza: [pause] Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing, because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here that that sort of thing is frowned upon… you know, cause I’ve worked in a lot of offices, and I tell you, people do that all the time. Actually, you picked the wrong example. In _The Couch_, George was in a book club and watched the movie instead of reading the book. Then he used the actor’s name instead of the book’s character’s name in the meeting. (George Peppard instead of Fred in _Breakfast at Tiffany’s_.) ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/119 "2014-10-25T23:38:55Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > My wife is Chinese. > > I am not offended if someone calls her “Oriental.” She is not offended if someone calls her “Oriental.” > > People are _way_ too uptight… ☹ My wife is Chinese. She would be offended if someone were to call her “Oriental”. However, I’ve never known it to happen. As someone in this thread already mentioned, in the Bay Area it’s commonly known to be taboo. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163/120 "2014-10-26T10:54:32Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > “Oriental” is like that. There’s nothing inherent about it that makes it a slur, but only a certain kind of person uses it. And now we’ve come full-circle. My OP was to Pit people as stupid as you. I wonder what “certain kind of people” you think I am. If it helps, I’ve considerable contact with East Asians and often find them, if anything, _superior_ – certainly I wouldn’t expect from them the sort of ignorant remark you just made. Read #26 to see my use of “Oriental” that was condemned. Upthread we learned that regarding “Oriental” as a slur is a fetish especially based in the S.F. Bay Area. I think we should go after _you_ instead of **YogSosoth** for skimming. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-the-stupid-outrage-over-oriental-about/702163.md?page=7)