# WTF is up with "enemies foreign and domestic"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411 "2019-01-25T18:56:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/21 "2019-01-25T23:04:47Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > “Destruction” would be an excessive term, but many right-wing constituencies increasingly feel hemmed in or restricted. Take the gay-wedding-cake issue, for instance. I think many people fail to understand just how vehement the religious conviction behind it is - regardless of whether it is right or wrong (let’s set that aside for a moment.) Let’s not set aside that ‘treating these people as human beings who deserve human rights’ is not some minor side issue. The constituencies that feel ‘hemmed in or restricted’ feel that way because they aren’t allowed to ignore laws requiring public businesses to serve all humans who come in. What they want to do is to cut certain demographics out of public life entirely, but couch it in terms to try to make it sound like they are the victim. > [@](#): > > The Christian bakers oppose serving gay weddings with the same vehement insistence that a Muslim or Orthodox Jew might refuse eating pork, for instance. Requiring them to serve gays brings the same intense anxiety as requiring a Muslim to eat pork. These are two radically different things. If the Muslim or Orthodox Jew refused service to anyone who eats pork, then it would be a comprable situation. But the Christian Bakers are not being told they have to participate in gay sex. “Your business has to serve the public if it wants a regular business license” and “you have to eat pork” are just not the same, no matter how much people who want to hurt minorities say they are. > [@](#): > > There are also many on the political left who oppose allowing Christians to homeschool, or actively try to refute creationist beliefs whenever they can (again, whether creationism is right or wrong isn’t the issue - the issue is, that for creationists, they increasingly do feel hemmed in and constricted in society). Etc. etc. for numerous other issues. So what they fell ‘hemmed in and constricted’ because they aren’t allowed to preach their religious beliefs in schools, and because schools teach actual proven scientific fact instead of fairy tales. What they’re ‘hemmed in and constricted’ by is that schools will teach actual facts, and that they are on equal footing with everyone else when it comes to forcing religion on other people’s kids. Framing ‘we are subject to the same restrictions as everyone else in theory, actually less in practice, and are no longer allowed to indoctrinate other people’s kids’ as ‘we are being horribly repressed’ is… more than a little unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/22 "2019-01-25T23:14:02Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Are you asking where the phrase originated, whether there are, indeed domestic enemies both today and in the past, or whether the phrase should (is?) being used by Trump et al in ridiculous over the top ways? I honestly can’t tell what the debate is. Obviously, if someone is saying ‘anyone who disagrees with me, politically, is a domestic enemy that should be hunted down by the state’ that person is an idiot and/or crazy. But there have been and are actual people who are or were US citizens who were obviously enemies of the state. This is historical fact, not some made up non-sense. You have already been given the Civil War one, but there are others. Do you agree or disagree or want to debate that point? 😕 I’m asking, more or less: When people say “Let’s pray for Trump because we have domestic enemies,” who are they talking about? I don’t think they’re talking about deep cover Al Qaeda agents or Americans who are secretly committed to the overthrow of our constitutional republic. I think they’re talking about anyone who opposes Trump’s agenda (or that of the right-of-center constituencies who support him). In other words, anyone who disagrees with them. I understand that the U.S. has genuine enemies, and that some of them may be domestic. My point for debate (or maybe just the object of my rant) is, don’t we think the brush may be applied just a little too broadly? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/23 "2019-01-25T23:16:18Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > … But what do you think people on the right mean when they talk about “domestic enemies?” And do they think they’re being alarmist, over-dramatic or paranoid, or do you think they have a legit point? I’m sure the answer varies from person to person. There are probably some that would reserve that description for just James Hodgkinson, and others that would apply it to everyone that voted for HRC, and nearly-infinite variations between those two ends of the spectrum. Yes, some of them are “being alarmist, over-dramatic or paranoid”, just as some on the Left are. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/24 "2019-01-25T23:22:03Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > I’m asking, more or less: When people say “Let’s pray for Trump because we have domestic enemies,” who are they talking about? > > I don’t think they’re talking about deep cover Al Qaeda agents or Americans who are secretly committed to the overthrow of our constitutional republic. I think they’re talking about anyone who opposes Trump’s agenda (or that of the right-of-center constituencies who support him). In other words, anyone who disagrees with them. > > I understand that the U.S. has genuine enemies, and that some of them may be domestic. My point for debate (or maybe just the object of my rant) is, don’t we think the brush may be applied just a little too broadly? Ok. So, you don’t actually have a problem with the ‘foreign or domestic’ enemies bit, in concept, but really want to talk about some of the (crazy and/or stupid…IMHO of course) Trump supporters who are using the phrase to mean anyone who disagrees with Trump. I actually haven’t seen folks who are saying pray for Trump (which, with the first word there I tend to tune out automatically anyway) because of his domestic enemies, so I don’t know exactly what they mean by ‘enemies’ in that context. Enemies of Trump? Certainly he has a LOT of domestic enemies in this context…I’m one of them. If they mean enemies of the state because they oppose Trump then, well, we get into the idiotic and crazy realm, but also, IMHO, they don’t actually understand what it means to be an American. Again, IMHO. I’d need to see more to delve into the context of what they are getting at. My, probably knee jerk reaction though is that they are probably crazy and stupid and don’t even know themselves what, exactly, they mean by that. But probably that anyone who is opposed to their hero is an enemy of the state and should be hunted down like running dogs… ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/25 "2019-01-26T01:35:27Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Yeah, but it was only the wackyloos on our side that said that if you supported Obama you were an enemy of America. We got the whole fucking board now saying that if you support Trump you hate America, are a Nazi, a KKK member, and the lot. It is very disheartening. Yes it is. **Velocity** ’s thread asking about a genicide of Republican voters was very disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/26 "2019-01-26T01:49:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Just for my own edification, which elected republican politicians said that if you supported Obama you were an enemy of America? Well, a currently elected politician in the office of president sure spent years saying stuff that sounded an awful lot like this. Can’t quite remember his name, but the word Kenyan sticks in my head. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/27 "2019-01-26T02:33:01Z")
I just saw this tweet: > [@](#): > > John Cardillo✔@johncardillo > > You cannot give Democrats an inch. > You have to crush them and make them beg for mercy, then deny them that mercy. > It is the only way to deal with the left. He’s a newshost rather than a politician, but as we’ve just seen with the wall those are the people who control the president. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/28 "2019-01-26T07:20:28Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Well, a currently elected politician in the office of president sure spent years saying stuff that sounded an awful lot like this. Can’t quite remember his name, but the word Kenyan sticks in my head. I see a significant difference between attacking a politician and attacking the _supporters_ of a politician, the presumably regular-ish folks that are our fellow citizens. That was a big part of the issue with HRC’s “deplorables” comment: it was an attack on millions of regular voters, not just a candidate. That’s what stuck out to me about **Miller** ’s claim too. S/He was saying that elected Republican politicians had said _people who supported_ Obama were “an enemy of America”: > [@Miller](#): > > > [@UltraVires](#): > > > > Yeah, but it was only the wackyloos on our side that said that if you supported Obama you were an enemy of America. > > If you’re including elected Republican politicians as “wackyloos,” then this is accurate. I don’t know, perhaps someone has. There are a good number of elected Republican politicians and I’m confident more than a few have said some dumb things. I just couldn’t recall anyone saying anything along those lines about Obama supporters. If it happened, I’d be interested in hearing about it. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/29 "2019-01-26T14:59:45Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > I’m asking, more or less: When people say “Let’s pray for Trump because we have domestic enemies,” who are they talking about? > > I don’t think they’re talking about deep cover Al Qaeda agents or Americans who are secretly committed to the overthrow of our constitutional republic. I think they’re talking about anyone who opposes Trump’s agenda (or that of the right-of-center constituencies who support him). In other words, anyone who disagrees with them. > > I understand that the U.S. has genuine enemies, and that some of them may be domestic. My point for debate (or maybe just the object of my rant) is, don’t we think the brush may be applied just a little too broadly? You are exactly right. The rhetoric on the right has grown increasingly virulent. Now it is incredibly common to hear people say - with total conviction - that liberals want to literally destroy America. Heck, Ann of Green Goebbels wrote a book titled: “Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism” all based on the premise that Democrats were traitors to America, again in the literal sense of the word. The lunacy of the right is just appalling. Recall the last Presidential term, where people believed Obama was going to commit genocide against white people? Actual military members were forming resistance groups because they genuinely thought Obama was going to wage war on America. People claimed Wal-Marts and old military bases were going to be used as Holocaust-style extermination camps. They thought a military exercise was cover for Obama’s plan to invade Texas. Heck, I was once at an NTC rotation when a soldier told me he believed Obama was a member of Al-Qaeda. Just this last election, we had a man with a gun attack a pizza place because he genuinely believed Hillary was using it for pedophilia. And then Americans looked at the author of racist, easily disproven fabrications and conspiracy theories and said, “That man deserves to be President!” Conservatives get all butt-hurt and bent out of shape about the ‘intolerant, hateful liberals.’ All I can say to them is, “What the fuck is wrong with you?” Like, do they really not hear themselves? Is it some kind of huge mystery why we think these people are insane? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/30 "2019-01-26T19:37:37Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Well, yes - not necessarily in the physical sense, but this sentiment is prevalent among a great many voters indeed. > > Ask any LGBT person how they would feel about a President Pence, or a “Pence Party” achieving majority rule in America. They’d tell you it means the impending destruction of what they stand for. Not (only) what they stand for, which in most cases is just equal civil rights for oppressed minorities, of which they have been one. Rather, actual destruction of what they are, as in the inability to live their lives openly. If anyone here isn’t old enough to remember what that was like in the 50s and 60s before Stonewall, let’s have a separate discussion about that. My hope, in the event of 45 resigning or being pushed out, hinges on the same political institutions that have protected us from the worst of 45’s nonsense, and that Pence himself is too weak a personality to actually manage to get very far in re-oppressing anyone. As for domestic enemies, I think there are some. Covert agents of foreign powers. Conspiracies and cabals aiming at essentially the overthrow of the government. That sort of thing, that have always been with us. What **vivalostwages** ’ SIL thought she meant by that phrase is anyone’s guess. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/31 "2019-01-27T14:13:55Z")
This is also part of the armed forces enlistment oath. Whether your an idiot with bad ideas or not, if you’ve chosen to support a political party that operates within the US government , you’re choosing to work with America. Now both parties have brought laws into existence of the want to bring laws into existence that aren’t constitutional, sometimes going directly against it. If anything this is the closest thing to a party being a domestic enemy. As long as they are willing to let the courts interpret whether it’s constitutional though and live with the decision they aren’t a domestic enemy. I am absolutely certain that there are probably a few examples of individual politicians purposely trying and sometimes succeeding in undermining the Constitution… But this is usually still more like subversion rather than an attack on the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/32 "2019-01-27T14:45:28Z")
Hell basically all federal level gun control laws are subversive to the Constitution which intended that power for states. Just like the marijuana regulations , again federal level bans are subversive to the Constitution which intended that power for states. Right or wrong it’s clearly subversive to the Constitution but was set up by both parties. Doesn’t make them domestic enemies of the state, they weren’t attacking the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/33 "2019-01-27T15:21:08Z")
So far that’s three votes(maybe four) posters that say that it is o.k. to have this attitude if you first point elsewhere and say “They do it too!”. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/34 "2019-01-28T18:27:41Z")
[quote=“Akaj, post:10, topic:828411”] [quote=“msmith537, post:8, topic:828411”] [Perhaps this video from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence might clear some things up.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpqOEniQK9U) > [@](#): > > That’s a hilarious video — about foreign enemies. What does it have to do with the idea of domestic enemies? I didn’t notice the author of the video, and thought during half of it that it was some comedy piece. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/35 "2019-01-28T21:19:42Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > I’m asking, more or less: When people say “Let’s pray for Trump because we have domestic enemies,” who are they talking about? > > I don’t think they’re talking about deep cover Al Qaeda agents or Americans who are secretly committed to the overthrow of our constitutional republic. I think they’re talking about anyone who opposes Trump’s agenda (or that of the right-of-center constituencies who support him). In other words, anyone who disagrees with them. If you already know what they mean, why are you asking? > [@](#): > > I understand that the U.S. has genuine enemies, and that some of them may be domestic. My point for debate (or maybe just the object of my rant) is, don’t we think the brush may be applied just a little too broadly? Yes, the brush can certainly be applied too broadly. For instance, assuming that anyone who advocates praying for Trump thinks that anyone who opposes his agenda is a domestic enemy is pretty broad brush. FWIW, I know several people who pray for Trump. I do it myself on occasion, as I do whoever is President. And neither I nor the others I know about believe that anyone who opposes Trump or his agenda is, _ipso facto_, an enemy of the United States. It’s odd - I have read enough rhetoric about how Trump is a traitor and a stooge of the Russians, and anyone who voted for him supports bringing back Jim Crow and whatnot, and Kavanaugh is a rapist and Pence wants to bring _The Handmaid’s Tale_ to real life and etc. etc. But if someone says we should pray for Trump, because (as you agree) we have domestic enemies, that means they are the ones with the broad brush. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/36 "2019-01-28T23:30:44Z")
I’m fairly certain that Trump _is_ one of those domestic enemies, what with the whole “beholden to Putin” thing. This fact makes me uncertain about the status of the people who support him in is efforts to undermine and destroy the country. Do you count as an enemy if you’re merely an unwitting/uninformed/deluded stooge? What if you knowingly and deliberately want to topple the government but don’t actually do anything to make it happen (like say a philosophical libertarian/anarchist)? My vague and unformed thinking is that you have to actually _do_ something before you can be considered an actual enemy of the country. It’s not quite reasonable to call the people enemies for just (for example) flying flags declaring their allegiance to secessionists, for the flags alone. Not quite, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/37 "2019-01-29T19:37:13Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > They conveniently miss the rest of the line from the pledge of allegiance: “defend \*\*the Constitution \*\*and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic” Gotta say I missed it to all those years I said it in school. > [@4 USC Section 4](#): > > The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: ‘‘I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.’’ ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411/38 "2019-01-31T13:54:28Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Yeah, but it was only the wackyloos on our side that said that if you supported Obama you were an enemy of America. We got the whole fucking board now saying that if you support Trump you hate America, are a Nazi, a KKK member, and the lot. It is very disheartening. It’s getting hard to have any sympathy for anyone who still supports Donald. I can see where some people voting for him out of gullibility and being impressed by his self-proclaimed business acumen. Or maybe they thought why not roll the dice. But now we see him for the monster that he is. Now I think that supporting this creature is incompatible with being a good person. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-up-with-enemies-foreign-and-domestic/828411.md?page=1)