# WTF is wrong with you, conservative America?!?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [February 19, 2011, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896 "2011-02-19T08:16:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/61 "2011-02-20T07:12:58Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#):
>
> Whether I was right or wrong, you’d never listen to me. And even if I was the most rightfully right person in history, and you were the most wrongfully wrong since dinosaurs roamed the earth, and even if both of us were fully and completely rational (somehow), it would make no difference. We have different values and different fundamental assumptions about how the world works, how it ought to work, and how it can work.
Does this blanket assumption apply to everyone in the world? I’ve changed my views rather drastically in life on account of arguments and the evidence. I realize it’s rare, but I’m wondering how broad a reach you’re going for with this statement.
> [@](#):
>
> I’m not successfully going to change a basic feature of the human condition, and I’m not particularly going to try.
Why are you here then? To troll the other side?
> [@](#):
>
> I’ve occaissionally posted something else to this effect. Amazingly, we “idiot conservatives” aren’t actually that stupid.
The OP isn’t talking about all conservatives. They’re talking about the birther type who listens to Beck seriously, who thinks our president is a part of a grand conspiracy and is a sleeper cell agent meant to destroy America, etc.
Conservatives on this board who argue well are generally well regarded. There aren’t many. But these intellectuals aren’t the massive band of stupid the OP is talking about.
But here’s the problem with that. You are almost all - conservatives, that is - in this together. You have an extreme amount of partisan discipline. You will almost never attack one of your own and immediately rush to their defense. You have almost all decided that “my side right or wrong” is more important than truth or intellectual honesty or even what’s best for the country.
To get you to reject the hateful, ignorant liars is like pulling teeth. On some level you must know they’re wrong yet you will rush to defend them. Sometimes directly (“these statements are not absurd lies if you interpret them in this creative way!”) or more often by trying to by partisan tu quoque. “Oh, 60% of republican primary voters think obama is a secret muslim terrorist? WELL SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING BAD ABOUT BUSH ONCE! We’re even!”
If you had any sort of integrity or credibility, you’d say something like “Look. I know my side has been at least partially co-opted by the loonies. I don’t support the lies they tell, or the hate they spread, or the ignorance they encourage. But I still have conservative values, which is why on these issues I \_\_\_\_\_”
But you never say anything like that. You rush to defend the ignorant, the liars, the hateful, which makes you guilty of the same things they are.
I mean - seriously - you must realize that over the last few years the right has been highly radicalized - and not just a fringe. There are mainstream views which are hateful, ignorant lies. Why is it that none of you can even acknowledge this? If you aren’t one of them, then reject them.
> [@elfkin477](#):
>
> Sorry, I’m still too busy laughing my ass off at the idea that conservatives crave an echo chamber more than liberals.
Let’s look at the low hanging fruit. Fox News is by far bigger than any leftist media outlet. (And don’t say “it’s only as biased as CNN/AP/etc which are a giant liberal conspiracy”, that’s so fucking stupid. None of them are remotely as biased, advocative, or flat out dishonest as Fox). Not only that, but many more people swear by it. They look at Fox News as a singular beacon of truth in a sea of lies.
Talk radio is pretty much entirely dominanted by conservatives. Those thousands chain e-mails that are made up of bullshit that are designed to provoke outrage are almost exclusively conservative in nature.
Hell, this board is predominantly liberal. Why? Is it because we ban conservatives? That we won’t hear them out?
No, it’s because this board has a very high level of discourse, one of the highest on the internet. People are challenged here. The board has a strong scientific/skeptical bent and bullshit gets destroyed here. Compare it to somewhere like free republic. Where are the ideas honestly debated and exchanged?
Most conservatives simply do not thrive in such an environment. There are plenty that do - a few of the conservative posters around here are among the best on the board - but as a whole, the nature of conservatism (and again, as with my previous posts I’m discluding intellectual libertarianism in this because their motivations are different) the nature of conservatism is a fear of change, and with that, a fear of challenging your own world view.
This board does not abide by bullshit, hence a natural outcome was to discourage most conservatives from posting here.
I’m somewhat involved in the organized skeptical movement as well as secular, rationalist movements. The interesting thing here is that those movements are generally non-political outside of their specific reach (fighting ignorance and fighting religious oppression, basically). Fighting ignorance should not be a partisan thing. And yet the skeptical movement is almost entirely made up of liberals and libertarians, with very few conservatives amongst the mix.
This is because skepticism is about challenging your views, recognizing your biases, and finding out the ultimate truth through the use of reason and evidence. This does not suit the sort of anti-intellectual, “I don’t need evidence, I know it in my gut” conservatism that marks the majority of the movement.
> [@kidchameleon](#):
>
> The problem is that my side is right and the other side is completely wrong. We have free thinkers and people that constructively disagree. The other side is made up of sheeple, all thinking the same thing, only what their talking heads say. And their fringe elements are just dangerous! They should be outlawed, the proposals they make. At least our fringe elements are few in number and only advocate a few things that are outside of what society really needs. If only my side had power for a few years, we could show everyone that we know how to really fix America, make it right. Plus their talking heads are boring, ours are funny and insightful.
This is a boring view.
Let’s consider it for a moment. What are the odds that both sides are exactly equal? That they both have the exact same amount of merit, that their leaders are both equally pure or impure, liars or honest, hateful or reasonable? These huge entities covering a huge range of topics are equally meritous or correct on all issues?
The “all sides are equal, everyone is just as biased/honest/reasonable/etc. as everyone else” view is the simple one. It does not require nuance. It makes the assumption that no matter what, all sides are equal. If one side suddenly became beacons of honesty and reason and the other side advocated the extermination of all their political opponents, you’d still be left with the idea that all sides are equal no matter what. It’s not amenable to change based on the actual facts of the situation. So it is useless.
---
### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/62 "2011-02-20T07:22:02Z")
**Sam Stone** , I guess you failed to notice I was one of the ones that thought this retread on the Republican health care alternative plan of the 90’s was not a very good one.
I think it was important to pass because the reality is that even Republicans understand that they would be dead meat if the most popular provisions of the law are repealed, and even more so when the people eventually will begin to notice that the alternative is worse. Health care costs in America are in reality a bubble. Even half good solutions like the one congress managed to pass are better than continue with the de facto Republican plan.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/63 "2011-02-20T08:22:18Z")
> [@gravitycrash](#):
>
> Yep it’s just the Right that participates in an echo chamber. Christ I just finished reading this Goddamn thread and as usual the masturbatory angst against the Right is overwrought, indignant, and exaggerated.
>
> Why don’t all of you on the Left here just fellate each other and call it a day.
>
> I would love to see those of you to show some humility from time to time and maybe admit that the Right could possibly have a good argument in regards to certain policies and beliefs.
>
> I’ll just mention two that I would like to see happen here but probably won’t:
>
> The Teachers Union is a joke and should be disbanded. I pretty much feel the same about all public unions in the 21st century but I’ll settle for a bone thrown our way just for that union.
>
> The Health Care Act: As written, it is broken into so many breaks for special interest and mind numbingly complex regulations that it would be better to start over.
> I would like for some on the Left to maybe, just maybe admit that the uncertainty of this program has contributed (possibly significantly) to the continued high unemployment rate.
> Companies are afraid to hire new employees full time without knowing the full cost of this program.
>
> Oh and if this program ends up saving money for the federal government according to the CBO I’ll forever stop watching porn.
>
> I’m sure this will turn out as expected but what the hell.
That’s your defense? When faced with accusations about conservative errors, your response is to ignore the errors - and then accuse liberals of refusing to address the errors they’ve made.
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### Author:  [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/64 "2011-02-20T14:18:35Z")
> [@Cyningablod](#):
>
> Just curious: Are you saying that if it doesn’t do those things, the thread is unjustified somehow? If that is what you’re obliquely saying, well…Forgive me. I didn’t realize pittings had to foster productive dialogue and proffer real-world solutions. :rolleyes:
You are, of course, welcome to post whatever you please, within the rules of the boards. My comment was simply an observation that these threads, of which I have seen more than I can count, seem to be to be an utter waste of time. I am absolutely baffled as to why people seem to take such relish in engaging in these competitive mental masturbation sessions, in which each side tries to declare their correctness louder than the other. Nobody ever changes their opinions on anything, nobody ever concedes the smallest point…it just goes on and on and on and on ad nauseum.
But, as I say, if that’s what you enjoy, more power to you. By the same token, however, I have the right to my opinion. If I were to walk past someone repeatedly slamming his head against a brick wall, I’d probably say something about that, too. In the interest of nonthreadshittiness, though, I’ll bow out now and leave you people to it.
---
### Author:  [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/65 "2011-02-20T15:02:27Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#):
>
> Now I know the knee-jerk right wing apologists will all say “yeah but liberals watch Olberman and John Stewart!”, which I think is actually a self defeating point. They think that as long as they can identify people who have political persuasians, they somehow offset and everything is equal, regardless of the content. And they ignore that liberals are more likely to seek out things that may challenge their views too. But if your counterpoint to Beck and Rush and Coulter is Olberman and Stewart, and you think that makes you even, then you’re only hurting yourself. You’re admitting the level of discourse on the other side is vastly higher.
**Senor** , I’d suggest that the lefty analog to Rush et al is actually the blogosphere, which seems to run more lefty than righty. Unfortunately that’s just anecdotal since I was unable to find any hard numbers… _however_…
[This piece](http://www.thenation.com/article/new-study-liberals-more-open-conservatives-online) from dem panty-wearin’ pinko commies at The Nation suggests liberal blogs have three times the ‘audience participation’ rate as conservative ones; that liberals are way more vocal (a conservative would say, ‘whiny’), and the ‘infrastructure’ encourages that (they cite Kos, which lets the audience put stuff on the ‘front page’, of sorts). You could make an argument that the lefty channel of choice is the interweb (since they’re all students and unemployed), and righty is talk radio (since they all have jobs and have to drive to work and stuff) 😛 But I’d never suggest that.
**Sam Stone** , once again you’ve done a fantastic job of explaining why the math of Obamacare doesn’t work, and we’re screwed if we don’t do something about it. The [budget](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2011/02/obamas_misleading_language_on.html) deficits in his 10 yr blueprint go up and up, to $774b in its last year. In 2011 we will borrow almost 1 out of every 3 dollars we spend, racking up crushing debt for our kids’ generation and squeezing out all would-be spending for helping the poor and stuff.
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### Author:  [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/66 "2011-02-20T15:27:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#):
>
> That is OK, I don’t think you don’t know also how wrong the side that disparages science is.
Shit, in the land of radiopharmaceutical science that isn’t divided by political leaning. There’s a more than enough stupid to go around.
---
### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/67 "2011-02-20T16:13:12Z")
> [@Cyningablod](#):
>
> I’m just fucking fed up. :mad: …
> What I’m seeing these days, which I never really observed before on this sort of scale, is a massive and broad right-wing rejection of pretty much _anything_–including fucking FACTS, for Og’s sake!!!–that is inconvenient to the Most Holy Revealed Truth of Heroic Anti-Socialist American God-Blessed Conservatism.
>
> These are intelligent … sweet, decent, hard-working Americans. But when the subject comes to Obama or left-right politics in general, they lose their fucking minds. Where in blue fuck did this popular insanity–this nationwide abandonment of reason among seemingly so much of the Right, and the consequent swallowing whole of great mounds of Beckian and Coulterian bigoted BULLSHIT–come from??
>
> I swear things didn’t used to be like this. I really don’t recall there ever being this degree of irrationality and blind fanaticism in either the Right or the Left. At least not in my own lifetime.
Thank you, **Cyningablod**. It’s a relief to know I’m not alone in my views.
> [@madmonk28](#):
>
> The Republicans have been pandering to the bigots in their ranks for decades and in recent years it reached a tipping point and the bigots have been able to take over the party completely. They’ve been helped by Fox news and the Republican Party’s cynical manipulation of 9/11 to pursue their own short term party goals over America’s national interest. All you can really do at this point is take notes for the history textbook chapter on the fall of America.
If we were talking about the fall of a random African country, or the fall of an ancient Armenian satrapy, it would be amusing. But this is **America the Superpower** , and Western civilization will literally be affected by the shenanigans of Karl Rove, Glen Beck, etc. We may be witnessing a tragedy beyond even epic proportion.
One sees much anger in today’s America. But the anger is largely misfocussed; indeed, the bitterest complaints are often by millionaires complaining about their taxes.
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> So some conservatives decided to split their agenda. They would maintain their real conservative agenda. But they would come up with a front agenda - something which might not really matter to them but which was a button issue to a lot of voters. They would use the front agenda to get elected and then once in power, they’d push forward their heart agenda.
Very true. Alleged agenda like improving schools or outlawing abortion are actually the last things right-winger leaders want: They need the anger. Even budget-balancing is in this category; the deficits of Reagan and GWB were deliberate “Kill the Beast” moves.
> [@](#):
>
> ```
> Round about the cauldron go; In the poison'd entrails throw.
> Toad, that under cold stone Days and nights has thirty-one
> Swelter'd venom sleeping got, Boil thou first i' the charmed pot.
>
> Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.
>
> Fillet of a fenny snake, In the cauldron boil and bake;
> Eye of newt and toe of frog, Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
> Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting, Lizard's leg and owlet's wing,
> For a charm of powerful trouble, Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
>
> Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn and cauldron bubble.
>
> Scale of dragon, tooth of wolf, Witches' mummy, maw and gulf
> Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark, Root of hemlock digg'd i' the dark,
> Liver of blaspheming Jew, Gall of goat, and slips of yew
> Silver'd in the moon's eclipse, Nose of Turk and Tartar's lips,
> Finger of birth-strangled babe Ditch-deliver'd by a drab,
> Make the gruel thick and slab: Add thereto a tiger's chaudron,
> For the ingredients of our cauldron.
>
> Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn and cauldron bubble.
>
> ```
---
### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/68 "2011-02-20T16:22:42Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> You know, you’ve had it explained to you over and over again that the CBO does nothing but calculate numbers based on the assumptions baked into the questions it is asked. The Democrats cooked the books on the health care bill, and you know it. They set up the question to the CBO such that the answer would be pre-ordained. Then once they got the CBO imprimatur, they trumpeted it like it’s the last word that ever needs to be said about the financing of the health care bill.
>
> But since you’re willing to accept the CBO as the oracle of health care wisdom, how about we dig a bit into the letter the CBO just sent to the congress?
>
> Text of the letter [here](http://cbo.gov/ftpdocs/120xx/doc12069/hr2.pdf).
>
> This is a useful letter because it breaks down the health care bill’s costs and revenues, and therefore sheds light on exactly why the CBO scored it as reducing the deficit.
>
> The first and most important thing to note is that it’s NOT reducing the cost of health care, which was one of its main selling points originally. The only reason it reduces the deficit _on paper_ is because the Democrats baked in a whole bunch of assumptions about the extra revenue it would raise and promised a bunch of savings by capturing planned cuts in other agencies and attributed them to this bill.
>
> For example, the CBO credits the bill with raising $27 billion dollars from penalties paid by uninsured citizens. The CBO has to do that, because the Congress said they’re going to collect it. Except that they took out any means of actually enforcing that collection. So just who is going to pay? How much of that $27 billion are they really going to collect?
>
> The bill raises 148 billion dollars by raising taxes on medical device manufacturers. But what it doesn’t do is assume that this will push up the cost of medical devices at all. Since it’s the government that will be paying for those medical devices through the health exchanges, that seems… problematic.
>
> The bill raises 248 billion dollars through a new hospital insurance tax. Again, the implicit assumption is that this will have no effect on the cost of health care services - which the government or insurance companies will have to pay.
>
> The bill raises $111 billion dollars through special taxes on ‘gold plated’ employer insurance plans. Except that the administration has already exempted the largest companies from that under pressure from labor unions. The Obama administration has so far issued 733 waivers to allow various special interests to avoid penalties and fees associated with the health care bill, including a blanket exemption to the SEUI, one of the largest unions in the country. That will have a big effect on the ‘gold plated’ tax collection and the 82 billion dollars that the bill was supposed to collect from non-compliant companies. But the waivers are not scored by the CBO because they’re not part of the bill.
>
> The CBO letter actually takes care to note the limitations of its estimates:
> Those changes are already happening, and every single one of them is a change that has a negative impact on the deficit.
>
> The bill cuts costs by $379 billion by reducing the fees paid to doctors’ FFS payment rates. Except that no one believes that this will actually happen, and Obama has already punted on this year’s reductions. In any event, those fees were scheduled to be reduced whether bill had passed or not, and really had nothing to do with this legislation. The Democrats just included it to make the numbers look better. The CBO had no choice but to score it, because that’s the way the bill was written.
>
> I could go on. The bottom line is that covering an additional 33 million people costs a lot of money. This bill doesn’t save money at all - it creates a new entitlement that will add about a trillion dollars to the cost of government, and only comes in as deficit neutral because it contains big tax hikes and captures savings that would have happened anyway.
>
> Or look at it this way - you could keep the tax hikes, eliminate the other stuff, and reduce the deficit by a trillion dollars over the next ten years.
>
> Finally, the CBO only looks at the bill itself - not the effect of the bill on the economy or other government outlays and revenues. For example, if the uncertainty around the health care bill is affecting unemployment, then the government is _already_ paying for it through increased UI premiums and reduced tax revenue. If the additional $813 billion dollars in new taxes in the bill cut economic growth, that will also have an affect on revenues and the deficit.
>
> So the CBO scores that the health care bill will, overall, reduce the deficit by $210 billion dollars because the tax increases and promised spending cuts in the bill are larger than the proposed costs. This should be considered the absolute best-case scenario - and a highly unlikely one. In the real world, almost every deviation from the rosy estimates of the bill will drive costs up and revenue down.
This is typical of what you like to post. A bunch of whiny bullshit about how the bill only works if congress enacts it. Well no shit.
And as for your pronouncement about how the bill could reduce the deficit farther if you kept the cuts but removed all the spending. Do you actually think that’s a profound realization? Of course if you removed the spending and kept the cuts it would further reduce the deficit. But, it wouldn’t cover 30 million people, remove pre-existing conditions or any other of the necessary things the bill does.
---
### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/69 "2011-02-20T16:23:26Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#):
>
> **Sam Stone** , once again you’ve done a fantastic job of explaining why the math of Obamacare doesn’t work, and we’re screwed if we don’t do something about it. The [budget](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2011/02/obamas_misleading_language_on.html) deficits in his 10 yr blueprint go up and up, to $774b in its last year. In 2011 we will borrow almost 1 out of every 3 dollars we spend, racking up crushing debt for our kids’ generation and squeezing out all would-be spending for helping the poor and stuff.
Ah, good to see you finally dropping any pretensions of being a moderate, that act was getting silly.
As before, I was not happy with the reform we got, and it was already clear to me that the numbers would very likely not add up in the near future, but this position ignores 2 big flies in the ointment.
First, the real world, were reforms like Medicare do not remain static: like medicare, the health plan was bound to get changes and further reforms to make it last as other government plans.
And then there is the economic cost of not doing anything. (The current default republican plan)
[http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/weekinreview/28abelson.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/weekinreview/28abelson.html)
> [@](#):
>
> Far from it, health policy analysts and economists of nearly every ideological persuasion agree. The unrelenting rise in medical costs is likely to wreak havoc within the system and beyond it, and pretty much everyone will be affected, directly or indirectly.
>
> “People think if we do nothing, we will have what we have now,” said Karen Davis, the president of the Commonwealth Fund, a nonprofit health care research group in New York. “In fact, what we will have is a substantial deterioration in what we have.”
>
> Nearly every mainstream analysis calls for medical costs to continue to climb over the next decade, outpacing the growth in the overall economy and certainly increasing faster than the average paycheck. Those higher costs will translate into higher premiums, which will mean fewer individuals and businesses will be able to afford insurance coverage. More of everyone’s dollar will go to health care, and government programs like Medicare and Medicaid will struggle to find the money to operate.
>
> Policy makers, in the end, may be forced to address the issue.
>
> “It will break all of our banks if we do nothing,” said Peter V. Lee, who oversees national health policy for the Pacific Business Group on Health, which represents employers that offer coverage to workers. “It is a course that is literally bankrupting the federal government and businesses and individuals across the country.”
>
> Even those families that enjoy generous insurance now are likely to see the cost of those benefits escalate. The typical price of family coverage now runs about $13,000 a year, but premiums are expected to nearly double, to $24,000, by 2020, according to the Commonwealth Fund. That equals nearly a quarter of the projected median family income in 2020.
>
> While some employers will continue to contribute the lion’s share of those premiums, there will be less money for employees in the form of raises or bonuses.
>
> “It’s also cramping our economic growth,” said Frank McArdle, a consultant with Hewitt Associates, which advises large employers and reported on the need for change for the Business Roundtable, an association of C.E.O.’s at major companies. Spending so much on health care is “really a waste of people’s money,” Mr. McArdle said.
>
> The higher premiums will also persuade more businesses, especially smaller ones, to decide not to offer insurance.
And I should add a third one: the unaccounted human cost: of families going into bankruptcy thanks to health care costs and the people who continue to die for not getting proper treatment thanks to the irrational health care we have now.
---
### Author:  [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/70 "2011-02-20T16:33:59Z")
> [@Smeghead](#):
>
> You are, of course, welcome to post whatever you please, within the rules of the boards. My comment was simply an observation that these threads, of which I have seen more than I can count, seem to be to be an utter waste of time.
99+ % of the internet is a waste of time. Hell, probably 90+ % of the Dope is a waste of time. So what’s your point?
> [@Smeghead](#):
>
> I am absolutely baffled as to why people seem to take such relish in engaging in these competitive mental masturbation sessions, in which each side tries to declare their correctness louder than the other. Nobody ever changes their opinions on anything, nobody ever concedes the smallest point…it just goes on and on and on and on ad nauseum.
And yet here you are engaging in that competitive mental masturbation yourself.
> [@Smeghead](#):
>
> In the interest of nonthreadshittiness, though, I’ll bow out now and leave you people to it.
Don’t let the door etc.
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/71 "2011-02-20T17:36:03Z")
> [@](#):
>
> … I’d suggest that the lefty analog to Rush et al is actually the blogosphere, which seems to run more lefty than righty.
As has been pointed in other threads, the right-wing defines centrist and rationalist thought as “left-wing,” rendering your claim fatuous.
Yeah, perhaps centrist and rationalists do outnumber, barely, the insane-right on blogs. Since this is already BBQ Pit I can point out one reason for this: many right-wingers just aren’t smart enough to compose prose sensible enough even for a blog.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/72 "2011-02-20T17:50:37Z")
First of all, Sam, I’m sure we are all mighty impressed that you did this all on your own, with just your pocket calculator and some good ol’ common sense. A lesser man might have cut and pasted some opinions from a source he could trust to offer the reliable point of view. But we are assured that this is all your own doing, and not second-hand from a rightwing blog. We are so assured, yes?
But enough of that. We know its flawed, and will need fixing. Perhaps it might have been better had Obama been engaged in negotiation and effort with a creative partner, rather than a right that lies down on the floor shrieking and kicking “No! No! No!”. How are we to take that seriously, what with “death panels” and “socialbilized medicine” and so on and so forth.
Would you be happier if we scrap this thing in favor of a more Yurpeen model of single payer, without all these dreadful accounting ploys? No? Because the status quo was wholly unacceptable, had been unacceptable for years and years, while insurance companies sucked in tons of cash and millions of our fellow citizens simply did without.
Your ideology demands that you believe that this sort of thing cannot possibly work. But it does, doesn’t it, with varying degrees of success. You are outside the conversation, you are not seeking to help, you are hoping to destroy. Outside of sneering, have you anything constructive to offer?
Big Money hate this thing. They hate the very idea that the sweet, sweet flow of cash might somehow be tamped down. The well-being of their fellow citizens means nothing to them, they have already proved this abundantly. Why would we trust them, why would we trust their paid mouthpieces?
The number one reason this thing has so many problems is that we were not negotiating in good faith, we couldn’t, because to do so would mean negotiating in good faith with people determined to sabotage the effort. And the result is a sorry mess, but its a start.
Tonight, millions of Mom’s sleep better, knowing that their kids are insured. You go tell them that you’re taking it back, and give them your numbers and charts. You think Mamma Grizzly is a bear? You don’t know the half of it. Go tell the millions of people who couldn’t buy insurance but now can, you go tell them you’re yanking it back.
Good luck with that.
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### Author:  [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/73 "2011-02-20T18:03:48Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#):
>
> Ah, good to see you finally dropping any pretensions of being a moderate, that act was getting silly.
>
> As before, I was not happy with the reform we got, and it was already clear to me that the numbers would very likely not add up in the near future, but this position ignores 2 big flies in the ointment.
>
> First, the real world, were reforms like Medicare do not remain static: like medicare, the health plan was bound to get changes and further reforms to make it last as other government plans.
>
> And then there is the economic cost of not doing anything. (The current default republican plan)
>
> [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/weekinreview/28abelson.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/weekinreview/28abelson.html)
>
> And I should add a third one: the unaccounted human cost: of families going into bankruptcy thanks to health care costs and the people who continue to die for not getting proper treatment thanks to the irrational health care we have now.
The bill was (and is) a fiscal disaster. We can’t afford it. I think at the end of the day, you and the other lefties here know that, but as per SOP nobody ever admits they’re wrong, they usually change the subject and inject snark (or as some of the kids here like to do, they go ad hominem).
PS apparently the term d’art is _independent_, since unlike most people on this board, I hold both conservative and liberal opinions across the spectrum of issues.
And **Septimus** , were you being sarcastic when you cry that the right defines what’s moderate, then babble on that the “centrist and rationalists” outnumber righties on blogs (thereby defining what’s centrist to your own benefit?)
If not, 10 out of 10 on the unintentional comedy scale.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/74 "2011-02-20T18:26:04Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#):
>
> …I hold…liberal opinions …
Morbid curiosity compels me to ask: such as?
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### Author:  [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/75 "2011-02-20T18:26:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> But enough of that. We know its flawed, and will need fixing. Perhaps it might have been better had Obama been engaged in negotiation and effort with a creative partner, rather than a right that lies down on the floor shrieking and kicking “No! No! No!”. How are we to take that seriously, what with “death panels” and “socialbilized medicine” and so on and so forth.
Who was he negotiating with? Didn’t the democrats have a majority?
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/76 "2011-02-20T18:31:25Z")
A majority doesn’t cut it anymore. You need a supermajority. That’s what makes it so extraordinary that Obama still kicked your ass.
---
### Author:  [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/77 "2011-02-20T18:36:23Z")
> [@Uzi](#):
>
> Who was he negotiating with? Didn’t the democrats have a majority?
The same fuckers who want to cry about bipartisanship whenever they don’t get their way, and then crow on about a “mandate” when they regain any type of majority.
---
### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/78 "2011-02-20T18:47:33Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#):
>
> The bill was (and is) a fiscal disaster. We can’t afford it. I think at the end of the day, you and the other lefties here know that, but as per SOP nobody ever admits they’re wrong, they usually change the subject and inject snark (or as some of the kids here like to do, they go ad hominem).
And I see you fail at reading comprehension, I already said twice that I think it was likely not to work to the letter, but continuing the status quo will lead to a worse financial disaster.
---
### Author:  [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/79 "2011-02-20T20:14:52Z")
> [@elfkin477](#):
>
> Your point in the OP seemed to be something about it being sad that there are birthers and that some people haven’t paid as close attention as you to the statements made by that blonde chick who writes political books, […]
Generally accurate, but you seem to have missed my larger point: Ignorance, irrationality, and disregard for facts and nuance now govern contemporary popular conservative thought. The birther/Coulter examples were just _illustrations_ of my larger point.
But I think you secretly knew this.
> [@](#):
>
> […] while most of us have chimed to say that the usual smug masturbatory self-congratulatory posts on this board are laughable counter-evidence to the theory that conservatives are more likely to only want to hear people express the same opinions that they hold […]
I’m not the one who started the “echo chamber” argument, and I have little interest in participating in it.
> [@](#):
>
> (I mean Jesus, people, there are 50x more threads here started by liberals […]
That’s because the majority of Dopers are liberals.
On a board whose raison d’etre is fighting ignorance, that stands to reason, IMHO.
> [@](#):
>
> […] who want confirmation that [insert issue] is terrible than conservatives doing likewise - no, no desire for an echo chamber at all there).
When I drafted my OP, I didn’t give a flying shit if anyone responded at all. I just wanted to vent. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you insist on implying that I wanted “confirmation” of _anything_?
> [@](#):
>
> Seems to me that we’ve helped derail the points you were trying to make, not proved them.
Believe what you wish.
> [@](#):
>
> As for your OP, of course Obama is an American.
Congratulations. You have a grasp of basic fact (at least on this issue). You are now among those conservatives–seemingly the minority, these days!–who can debate things as an informed adult. Please do try to encourage your co-ideologues to lift themselves up to this level, too, mkay? Much obliged.
> [@](#):
>
> And I’ve never read a word Ann fucking Coulter has written, so how the hell am I supposed to know what she says about Muslims?
What the hell does that have to do with the main theme of my OP? Or my comments since? Again, as I indicated in my first paragraph of _this_ post, you have myopically missed the larger point of my OP, choosing instead to zero in on the examples. As if the examples were the actual issue I was raising, rather than just being, you know…_examples_. :rolleyes:
---
### Author:  [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/80 "2011-02-20T20:23:11Z")
> [@Smeghead](#):
>
> You are, of course, welcome to post whatever you please, within the rules of the boards. My comment was simply an observation that these threads, of which I have seen more than I can count, seem to be to be an utter waste of time.
Ah, so now Pit threads have to be non-wastes of time. Gotcha. :rolleyes:
I wonder what sort of precious cultural contributions we might find if we reviewed YOUR entire posting history? Never once wasted any time, have we?
> [@](#):
>
> I am absolutely baffled as to why people seem to take such relish in engaging in these competitive mental masturbation sessions, […]
“Mental masturbation session” is webspeak for “someone expressing an idea with which I disagree, with which a third party later happens to concur.”
Spare me this lame rhetoric.
> [@](#):
>
> […] in which each side tries to declare their correctness louder than the other. Nobody ever changes their opinions on anything, nobody ever concedes the smallest point…it just goes on and on and on and on ad nauseum.
From now on I shall be scrutinizing your each and every post to ensure that you never “waste” any time, and never engage in any debate in which no one is likely to change their minds. K?
:rolleyes:
> [@](#):
>
> But, as I say, if that’s what you enjoy, more power to you. By the same token, however, I have the right to my opinion. If I were to walk past someone repeatedly slamming his head against a brick wall, I’d probably say something about that, too. In the interest of nonthreadshittiness, though, I’ll bow out now and leave you people to it.
Ironically, your post is the one that has contributed the _least_ information to this thread. Others, even when disagreeing with me, have made substantive points. You just dropped in to say, “You’re not saying anything important.” :dubious: Think about that.
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