# WTF is wrong with you, conservative America?!?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [February 19, 2011, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896 "2011-02-19T08:16:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/81 "2011-02-20T20:30:26Z")
Well, damn. I wrote a giant long message and then the board ate my post, **Senor Beef**. Maybe if I have another hour I’ll do it again, and maybe not. I don’t generally care much about the opinions of people who claim to respect me and mine while cursing me out and claiming I cannot possibly have anything of use to say because I’m automatically just that stupid.
---
### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/82 "2011-02-20T20:35:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> First of all, Sam, I’m sure we are all mighty impressed that you did this all on your own, with just your pocket calculator and some good ol’ common sense. A lesser man might have cut and pasted some opinions from a source he could trust to offer the reliable point of view. But we are assured that this is all your own doing, and not second-hand from a rightwing blog. We are so assured, yes?
Yes, you are. My source for the numbers was cited in my message. You seem to think that the ability to add up numbers in a column is some sort of rare ability. That’s just sad. To paraphrase Dean Wormer: “Fat, drunk and innumerate is no way to go through life, son.”
To be specific - I never read any of this on any blog, left or right. In fact, what drove me to the source material was a post on Media Matters criticizing a right-wing blog somewhere. Media Matters was right in their specific criticism, but I didn’t think they were being completely fair, so I went and followed the link they posted to the source document and did my own analysis. It really wasn’t that hard. You should try it sometime.
You have my personal guarantee that anything I post here from another source will be in quote tags, with a proper link cited. You also have my guarantee that this has always been the case, despite the wingnuts on this board who stand ready to shout, “Liar! Plagiarist! Mouthpiece of the right-wing establishment!” every time they run into an argument they can’t deal with.
> [@](#):
>
> But enough of that. We know its flawed, and will need fixing. Perhaps it might have been better had Obama been engaged in negotiation and effort with a creative partner, rather than a right that lies down on the floor shrieking and kicking “No! No! No!”. How are we to take that seriously, what with “death panels” and “socialbilized medicine” and so on and so forth.
What’s your definition of success? My argument here is not that it won’t expand coverage or have other positive affects for some people, but that it will NOT reduce the cost of health care, which was the problem it was purported to address. In fact, it will increase the cost of health care substantially.
This bill does the following things, all of which will make health care more expensive in the United States:
- Restrict supply of medical services through new taxes on health care delivery and pay cuts to doctors.
- Increase demand for health care by adding 33 million people to the insurance roles
- Add new layers of bureaucracy to health care decision-making
- Increase the role of 3rd party payers in health care.
If you want to ‘bend the cost curve’, all of these things are counter-productive. If you want to sell the health care plan in terms of social justice, I won’t say a word. That’s a value judgment. But if you’re trying to sell it as a mechanism for correcting the fundamental problems of health care delivery and the cost explosion of health care, I’ll throw these numbers in your face every time, because it’s a lie.
> [@](#):
>
> Would you be happier if we scrap this thing in favor of a more Yurpeen model of single payer, without all these dreadful accounting ploys? No? Because the status quo was wholly unacceptable, had been unacceptable for years and years, while insurance companies sucked in tons of cash and millions of our fellow citizens simply did without.
>
> Your ideology demands that you believe that this sort of thing cannot possibly work. But it does, doesn’t it, with varying degrees of success. You are outside the conversation, you are not seeking to help, you are hoping to destroy. Outside of sneering, have you anything constructive to offer?
I’ve offered many constructive ideas. The primary one is to offer government catastrophic coverage only to fix the worst cases of people being bankrupted by health care bills, while allowing them to fund the routine medical costs themselves or through gap insurance they can get from their employer or on the open market. Eliminate the tax subsidy for employer-provided health insurance and use the savings to fund a catastrophic insurance plan.
> [@](#):
>
> Big Money hate this thing. They hate the very idea that the sweet, sweet flow of cash might somehow be tamped down. The well-being of their fellow citizens means nothing to them, they have already proved this abundantly. Why would we trust them, why would we trust their paid mouthpieces?
Uh huh. In elucidator-land, it’s all class warfare, all the time. I guess you haven’t noticed that the real big lobbyists and big money are congregating on the Democrat’s side, huh? Rent-seeking is much easier when the government is run by gullible activists.
> [@](#):
>
> The number one reason this thing has so many problems is that we were not negotiating in good faith, we couldn’t, because to do so would mean negotiating in good faith with people determined to sabotage the effort. And the result is a sorry mess, but its a start.
Let me rephrase: “We couldn’t get this through if we actually told the truth about it, so we lied.”
> [@](#):
>
> Tonight, millions of Mom’s sleep better, knowing that their kids are insured. You go tell them that you’re taking it back, and give them your numbers and charts. You think Mamma Grizzly is a bear? You don’t know the half of it. Go tell the millions of people who couldn’t buy insurance but now can, you go tell them you’re yanking it back.
>
> Good luck with that.
It seems to me that most people actually agree with me, not you. Th health care bill has had the support of a minority of Americans for a long time, and opposition to the bill keeps growing. You can put as much populist lipstick on that pig as you want, but the American people can still hear the oinking.
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### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/83 "2011-02-20T20:53:00Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> It seems to me that most people actually agree with me, not you.
Not in Canada they don’t. 🙂
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> Th health care bill has had the support of a minority of Americans for a long time, and opposition to the bill keeps growing. You can put as much populist lipstick on that pig as you want, but the American people can still hear the oinking.
Once again the opposition includes people like me that mildly opposed it because it was not properly made. But then again, even _The Economist_ recognized that this bill was just a first step in a long way to proper reform, the bit about controlling costs will have to be dealt with sooner or later. What I see is that the real American way in cases like this is to wait for disaster to then make changes.
I don’t think the republicans will help on the coming bubble burst, they will just work to make matters worse.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/84 "2011-02-20T21:07:39Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> … I guess you haven’t noticed that the real big lobbyists and big money are congregating on the Democrat’s side, huh?..
Just this, for now. Get around to the rest of it, but this is special, this is _primo_ **Sam** , the genuine article, ninety-nine percent pure. By which gentle inference, I mean it is utter horseshit.
Substantiate that. “Fling the numbers in my face”, if you can. Double dog dare you. Bring it.
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### Author:  [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/85 "2011-02-20T21:09:25Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> I guess you haven’t noticed that the real big lobbyists and big money are congregating on the Democrat’s side, huh?
I know we’re in the Pit, but I would LOVE to see evidence of this. Absolutely love.
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### Author:  [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/86 "2011-02-20T21:23:03Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#):
>
> I know we’re in the Pit, but I would LOVE to see evidence of this. Absolutely love.
Evidence shmevidence. It’s whatever you can make people believe by saying it often enough and/or loud enough.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/87 "2011-02-20T21:26:11Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> it will NOT reduce the cost of health care, which was the problem it was purported to address.
No, that was not “the” problem, or even the primary one. Since you do know that, the subject having been discussed a time or two, that assertion can only be categorized as more of your typical ideologically-driven dishonestly.
> [@](#):
>
> In fact, it will increase the cost of health care substantially.
A predictable result of more people getting it, to the extent that your handwaving is even true. But you do need to consider that:
1. Catastrophic care is provided already at emergency rooms
2. Fewer problems will get to that point if preventive and early-stage care is available to more people. It’s not odd that you don’t get into that, since it contradicts your brand of dishonest ideologuism. It’s also not odd that you don’t discuss the substantial savings from disintermediation of corporate parasitism from Medicare Advantage.
> [@](#):
>
> I’ve offered many constructive ideas. The primary one is to offer government catastrophic coverage only to fix the worst cases of people being bankrupted by health care bills
Another case of the value of preventive and early-stage care being inconvenient to your ideologuism.
> [@](#):
>
> gap insurance they can get from their employer or on the open market.
You actually said that is if you had some understanding of reality. Remarkable.
> [@](#):
>
> Eliminate the tax subsidy for employer-provided health insurance
And thereby reduce its availablity. Great idea, Ayn.
> [@](#):
>
> In elucidator-land, it’s all class warfare, all the time.
You con’t really want to pretend your own entire philosophy of life is not based on that.
> [@](#):
>
> I guess you haven’t noticed that the real big lobbyists and big money are congregating on the Democrat’s side, huh?
Cite it or explain why you thought anybody would believe that. Or is the cite for that in the area around Baghdad and Tikrit, and the area south, north, west and east somewhat? :rolleyes:
> [@](#):
>
> Th health care bill has had the support of a minority of Americans for a long time, and opposition to the bill keeps growing.
Since you’ve had that explained to you as well, numerous times, to continue to assert it is a simple lie. But in character, nonetheless.
Credibility is earned. Yours has been earned very well, I’m afraid.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/88 "2011-02-20T21:27:36Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Evidence shmevidence. It’s whatever you can make people believe by saying it often enough and/or loud enough.
That’s about half of it. The other half is having enough money to say it loud, often, and nationwide.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/89 "2011-02-20T21:31:21Z")
> [@davidm](#):
>
> Here in the states I hear about it constantly. A lot of Republican politicians, while not necessarily buying into it, refuse to categorically dismiss it for fear of alienating their base.
>
> According to some polls a large number, maybe even a majority, of Republican voters are skeptical about Obama being a “natural born citizen”.
>
> [Birthers Comprise Majority Of Likely 2012 GOP Primary Voters (POLL) | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/15/birther-poll_n_823666.html)
>
> When a large percentage of one of the only two relevant political parties are living in la la land, and when many of they’re own representatives refuse to try to set them straight, that’s a problem and a symptom of other problems.
This survey refers to “likely primary voters,” not to GOP voters as a whole.
There’s no doubt that ANY percentage in the double digits is embarrassing, but I think it represents a quality that may be found on either side of the political spectrum: being highly skeptical of claims that run counter to your fond wishes and not nearly so skeptical of claims that support them.
So for this thread I’ll simply say that:
a) Birther claims are NOT a majority, but they are an uncomfortably large minority in conservative circles
b) This kind of phenomenon is not unique to conservatives
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### Author:  [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/90 "2011-02-20T21:42:01Z")
They’re one of the right’s many groups of useful idiots. They’re reliable for giving out sensationalist rant, which is useful for diverting public and media attention from more substantive issues.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/91 "2011-02-20T21:42:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> This survey refers to “likely primary voters,” not to GOP voters as a whole.
Is it supposed to be reassuring that the crazier ones are more likely to vote? :dubious:
> [@](#):
>
> This kind of phenomenon is not unique to conservatives
How about a favorite example or three, then? Whaddaya got for us?
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### Author:  [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/92 "2011-02-20T21:46:59Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#):
>
> The problem is that my side is right and the other side is completely wrong. We have free thinkers and people that constructively disagree. The other side is made up of sheeple, all thinking the same thing, only what their talking heads say. And their fringe elements are just dangerous! They should be outlawed, the proposals they make. At least our fringe elements are few in number and only advocate a few things that are outside of what society really needs. If only my side had power for a few years, we could show everyone that we know how to really fix America, make it right. Plus their talking heads are boring, ours are funny and insightful.
As a moderate, I’d simply like to say that my side is right and both sides are wrong headed sheeple fringe elements that are out of touch with reality.
Other than that, your post was great. 🙂
> [@davidm](#):
>
> 99+ % of the internet is a waste of time.
Why do you think porn is a waste of time?
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/93 "2011-02-20T21:50:58Z")
Well, your porn is!
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/94 "2011-02-20T21:51:53Z")
I think you’re wrong on both counts. The polls don’t back you up on that “minority” thing, and the left has absolutely nothing like this - at least not with the kind of mainstream currency that the Birthers have, and the Republican leadership shows no inclination to to squelch it either.
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### Author:  [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/95 "2011-02-20T21:57:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> b) This kind of phenomenon is not unique to conservatives
**Bricker** might be correct on this, I don’t know. It does seem, for example, like there is a loud leftist minority of 9/11 Truthers.
But it really seems to me that the core ideas of Birtherism have found acceptance among a disturbingly large percentage of very mainstream conservative Americans, to a degree that no left-wing bullshit has ever found among mainstream liberals. While the leftist nutjob Truthers (like Charlie Sheen, Janine Garofalo [sp?], etc) are rather few and far between and largely ineffective in generating broad support for their ideas, the right-wing Birthers have co-opted a large part of the unofficial Republican ideology.
That was one of the more particular points of my OP: An AWFUL LOT of normal, intelligent, educated, rank-and-file conservatives are flirting with Birtherism these days.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/96 "2011-02-20T21:59:14Z")
> [@davidm](#):
>
> 99+ % of the internet is a waste of time. Hell, probably 90+ % of the Dope is a waste of time.
I dunno, Sturgeon indicated that only 90% of everything was crud. I’m not sure why you would rachet that up to 99%.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/97 "2011-02-20T22:09:40Z")
Availability. Almost everything then was in print form only, raising the “publication” threshold quite a bit too. And there were only 3 TV channels to be cruddy.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/98 "2011-02-20T22:38:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Just this, for now. Get around to the rest of it, but this is special, this is _primo_ **Sam** , the genuine article, ninety-nine percent pure. By which gentle inference, I mean it is utter horseshit.
>
> Substantiate that. “Fling the numbers in my face”, if you can. Double dog dare you. Bring it.
Well, let’s start with the [Heavy Hitters](http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?order=A) list at [OpenSecrets.org](http://OpenSecrets.org).
You may note that of the top 20 biggest contributors to federal political campaigns, only ONE gives substantially more to Republicans than to Democrats. Four more are relatively neutral, and fifteen of them give much larger sums to Democrats than to Republicans.
I would also point you to have a look at the revolving door between the high level executives at some of the biggest beneficiaries of government largesse and the Democratic party. You can start with the executive boards of Goldman Sachs, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
You might also note the big money transfers to General Electric, whose CEO now sits as an adviser to the Obama administration.
Also from OpenSecrets, a list of the [Top Industry Donors](http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/mems.php). Of the top 20 industries donating to federal politics, only TWO gave more to Republicans than to Democrats.
In [this list](http://www.newsmeat.com/billionaire_political_donations/), which compiles the donations to Democrats and Republicans from American billionaires since 1978, the contributions between the two parties are almost identical, suggesting that Republicans have no particular support from the richest Americans.
However, if you look at the column called “Special Interests”, you’ll see that a large percentage of billionaire money went into political projects rather than directly to candidates, and that money skews liberal. George Soros for example has put 82% of his contributions into special interests, all of which are heavily Democratic. T Boone Pickens has done the same.
[This gloating article in Slate](http://www.slate.com/id/2175725/) describes how the Republicans lost the ‘wealthy’ in the 2908 election. From the article:
> [@](#):
>
> Don’t take this the wrong way, but everything you know about the link between business and politics is incorrect.
>
> For nearly the entire 20th century, a simple formula held: Businesspeople like Republicans and don’t like Democrats. Republican politicians and voters heartily embrace free trade and lower taxes, while Democratic politicians and their constituencies cotton to protectionism and higher taxes. Over the past century, racial, ethnic, and geographic realignments altered the shape of the national parties beyond recognition. But when it came to the wealthy, there was less movement than in the facial muscles of an over-Botoxed newscaster. Until now.
>
> Democrats, who have never out-fund-raised Republicans in the modern political era, are kicking the tar out of their rivals this campaign cycle. Through the first half of this year, Democratic entities—congressional, presidential, and party operations—raised $388.8 million, compared with $287.3 million for their Republican counterparts, according to the Wall Street Journal. In the third quarter, the top three Democratic candidates—Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and John Edwards—raised 50 percent more money than the top four Republican candidates.
> Advertisement
>
> The Democrats’ funds aren’t coming just from enraged readers of [DailyKos.com](http://DailyKos.com) who chip in $20.08 via the Internet. They’re flowing in from people who can afford to throw $4,000 of post-tax income into campaign coffers. Elections past brought us the Reagan Democrats, NASCAR dads, and soccer moms. Now we have the Fed-Up CEOs and the Angry Yuppies.
> …
>
> But it’s not just the ultra-rich who are abandoning Republicans. CNN’s exit poll last fall showed that voters in the East making between $150,000 and $200,000 favored Democratic candidates by a 63-37 majority.
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### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/99 "2011-02-20T22:47:25Z")
That Slate article was of course from 2008. But it was different on the last mid-term.
The challenge was related to Lobbies too and I would have trouble to see the Chamber of Commerce to lobby for democratic plans.
> **[Top Spenders](https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/top-spenders?cycle=2021)**
>
> US Chamber of Commerce topped the list of lobbying clients in 2021, spending $66,410,000. See the top 20 clients.
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### Author:  [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-is-wrong-with-you-conservative-america/571896/100 "2011-02-21T00:23:31Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#):
>
> Well, damn. I wrote a giant long message and then the board ate my post, **Senor Beef**. Maybe if I have another hour I’ll do it again, and maybe not.
Well I guess I stand refuted then! Good work.
> [@](#):
>
> I don’t generally care much about the opinions of people who claim to respect me and mine while cursing me out and claiming I cannot possibly have anything of use to say because I’m automatically just that stupid.
This isn’t a reasonable paraphrase of my points.
For one, you’re assuming that I consider you one of the intellectual conservatives on this board. But even if that were the case, then it would make no sense for me to say that you “cannot possibly have anything of use to say because [you’re] just that stupid”.
Nothing that can be summarized that way even appears in my post.
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