# WTF Norway?!! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490 "2012-08-24T14:40:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/1 "2012-08-24T14:40:19Z")
The sentence was handed down today for Anders Behring Breivik, the mass murderer of 77 men, women and children. The punishment? 21 years. _21 years_. For 77 murders. That’s fewer than 3 months per murder. Americans have a general feeling that Europe is soft on crime, _but 21 years?_. This would seem to reinforce the stereotype in a major way. First Ireland releases the Lockerbie bomber to a hero’s welcome and now this. I realize Norwegian sentencing laws allow for more time to be added and that it’s “likely Breivik will spend the rest of his life in prison.” But, why is that only “likely?” Why not just give the guy a life sentence? In what universe should this guy ever draw breath outside of prison? Is the stereotype true? Please make sense of this for me. To avoid this becoming more than an IMHO rant, here’s the debate: Assuming this sentence isn’t an outlier, what is the rationale for such an absurdly light sentence? Is there some bonafide research to indicate this is actually more effective in crime prevention than just locking guys like this up forever? Is it purely the sense that prison is for prevention with no goal of equal punishment? I’m not suggesting the death penalty (this need not turn this into _that_ debate), but does this strike anyone else as going in the opposite direction to the extreme? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/2 "2012-08-24T14:45:44Z")
Breivarks recieved the maximum sentence he could under Norwegian law. Also a more apt description of the possibility of him spending the rest of his life in prison would be “virtual certainty” not “likely.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/3 "2012-08-24T14:47:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Breivarks recieved the maximum sentence he could under Norwegian law. > > Also a more apt description of the possibility of him spending the rest of his life in prison would be “virtual certainty” not “likely.” Can you explain how that works and what precedents there are? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/4 "2012-08-24T14:48:19Z")
> [@Victor\_Charlie](#): > > First Ireland releases the Lockerbie bomber to a hero’s welcome and now this. Ireland? ---
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/5 "2012-08-24T14:48:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Breivarks recieved the maximum sentence he could under Norwegian law. > > Also a more apt description of the possibility of him spending the rest of his life in prison would be “virtual certainty” not “likely.” Okay, so why is it Norway has a maximum penalty of 21 years no matter what the crime? Why is there any chance whatsoever this guy could get out? ---
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/6 "2012-08-24T14:49:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Ireland? I just commited the cardinal sin of mistaking Ireland for Scotland, didn’t I? Mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/7 "2012-08-24T14:53:55Z")
> [@Victor\_Charlie](#): > > I just commited the cardinal sin of mistaking Ireland for Scotland, didn’t I? Mea culpa. It’s like ordering a Oban 14 year old and getting a Bushmill’s instead-_totally_ inexcusable! ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/8 "2012-08-24T15:04:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you explain how that works and what precedents there are? He is apparently unabashedly unrepentant and Norway reserves the right to refuse release to prisoners deemed a danger to society. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/9 "2012-08-24T15:11:37Z")
> [@Victor\_Charlie](#): > > I just commited the cardinal sin of mistaking Ireland for Scotland, didn’t I? Mea culpa. Yeah, those other countries are all the same anyway, and clearly they all ought to run their legal systems just like the United States, where he might have got a sensible sentence like 77 times life. Why, with a sensible 'Mercan sentencing policy, before long places like Norland could have just as high a proportion of their population in prison as America does! ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/10 "2012-08-24T15:16:45Z")
If the prospect of 21 **years i** n prison doesn’t deter you from committing a crime, I doubt the risk of 42 years would do it either. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/11 "2012-08-24T15:20:38Z")
They can extend the sentence by up to three years a time once it has run as I understand it if a prisoner is still deemed to pose a danger to the public. From talking to Norwegians it seems likely Breivik will never be released from prison. ---
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/12 "2012-08-24T15:23:05Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Yeah, those other countries are all the same anyway, and clearly they all ought to run their legal systems just like the United States, where he might have got a sensible sentence like 77 times life. Why, with a sensible 'Mercan sentencing policy, before long places like Norland could have just as high a proportion of their population in prison as America does! That’s not what I’m suggesting at all. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. The U.S. prison system isn’t grossly overcrowded because mass murderers get life sentences. It’s primarily because of myopic drug laws. ---
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/13 "2012-08-24T15:26:26Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > If the prospect of 21 **years i** n prison doesn’t deter you from committing a crime, I doubt the risk of 42 years would do it either. So prison is about nothing more than deterrence? There is no punitive aspect to sentencing at all? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/14 "2012-08-24T15:36:00Z")
> [@Victor\_Charlie](#): > > So prison is about nothing more than deterrence? There is no punitive aspect to sentencing at all? 21 years isn’t punishment? Plus, I bet he loses his right to vote. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/15 "2012-08-24T15:36:46Z")
I’m guessing that there was no option to try him separately on multiple accounts in order to get a longer sentence? Or does that fly in the face of what appears to be a national sentiment toward rehabilitation and compassionate treatment of the convicted? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/16 "2012-08-24T15:42:29Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > I’m guessing that there was no option to try him separately on multiple accounts in order to get a longer sentence? Or does that fly in the face of what appears to be a national sentiment toward rehabilitation and compassionate treatment of the convicted? Well, had I to guess, trying to get a longer sentence would drag the process out, cost a lot more, and end with the same result - he gets declared dangerous and spends his life in jail regardless of the actual sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/17 "2012-08-24T15:46:26Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > 21 years isn’t punishment? Plus, I bet he loses his right to vote. For 77 murders? 6 months per murder? > [@lieu](#): > > Or does that fly in the face of what appears to be a national sentiment toward rehabilitation and compassionate treatment of the convicted? Are you suggesing it would be uncompassionate to expect a man who murdered 77 men, women and children to spend the rest of his life in prison? Would it be uncompassionate to expect a man who murdered only one person to spend the rest of his life in prison? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/18 "2012-08-24T15:50:06Z")
_He is going to spend the rest of his life in prison._ I don’t see the point in playing games with the numbers. The most he can do in prison is life, and if you assume he lives about 50 years in jail, that’s all of 8 months per murder. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/19 "2012-08-24T15:50:52Z")
> [@Victor\_Charlie](#): > > Is there some bonafide research to indicate this is actually more effective in crime prevention than just locking guys like this up forever? Here’s an easy question for the hypothetical researcher- what’s the violent crime rate in Norway [compared to](http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/25/despite-recent-shootings-norway-is-a-low-crime-nation/)a country that _does_ dish out life- and death-sentences like candy. Say, oh, for instance, the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490/20 "2012-08-24T15:52:07Z")
Long prison sentences are a huge problem in our country (U.S.) I don’t think anyone would really object to this particular guy getting life in prison, but I do think we need to give more thought to what we’re trying to accomplish with our prison system. _Expressing outrage_ is a slippery slope that we’ve slipped pretty far down. The concept of punishing someone \*enough \* is subject to a lot of subjective analysis. 21 years may not seem like much since people in this country can get that much for growing pot, but it’s quite a long time. I don’t know about you, but if you told me I had to spend the next 21 years of my life in a cell, I’d have to change a lot of my plans. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-norway/632490.md?page=2)