# WTF? Pay Up or We Let Your House Burn Down? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210 "2010-10-06T03:08:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/181 "2010-10-07T22:57:08Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@sitchensis](#): > > > > Rural as in population density not distance. I’m not saying this is the case but; if one person lives in the middle of 50 square miles, and if as people are suggesting everyone has to have fire service. That one person would have to build the fire station next door to his house and then get the government to hire him to protect himself. > > What you’re ranting about is 100% unrelated to this thread. This is about someone who \*could \*have had the services of a fire department, and \*would \*have had those services, but instead chose not to pay the obscenely low annual fee, and then was shocked when he didn’t get what he didn’t pay for. Not only that, he (or at least a majority of his neighbors) voted _against_ a 13 _cent_ raise in their annual county property taxes to pay for a county-wide fire service. Maybe I flunked “new math,” but the math I was brought up on says $0.13/year \< $75.00/year. Someone check my math on this. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/182 "2010-10-07T22:59:58Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > > What you’re ranting about is 100% unrelated to this thread. This is about someone who \*could \*have had the services of a fire department, and \*would \*have had those services, but instead chose not to pay the obscenely low annual fee, and then was shocked when he didn’t get what he didn’t pay for. > > Not only that, he (or at least a majority of his neighbors) voted _against_ a 13 _cent_ raise in their annual county property taxes to pay for a county-wide fire service. > > Maybe I flunked “new math,” but the math I was brought up on says $0.13/year \< $75.00/year. > > Someone check my math on this. It was mentioned above that property tax increases are always per $100 of the value of the home. So someone whose house is worth $100,000 would pay $130. That seems high to me, but I live in a city where $100k is on the cheap side. In the middle of a rural county, a house (and it’s a trailer home, innit?) is probably worth a good bit less than that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/183 "2010-10-08T00:15:50Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > It’s really not that uncommon for fire fighters to stand around and watch a house burn down. There is a go-no-go decision at every fire as to whether or not it’s worth trying to fight. Right. There is an established procedure, set either by department regulation or even by law (ordinance), determining how and to what extent the municipal–note, it’s not the county’s–fired department is deployed. In this case, the municipal fire department’s procedure included an opt-in/opt-out choice for a ridiculously low price of approximately 20 cents per day. It’s sad the man lost his home; however, it would be even more sad if the fire department could not be deployed as required if they were busy violating the established procedure. One might think that’s bureaucratic but there’s more to fighting a fire than “Oh, there’s a fire! Let’s put it out!” The on-scene leader (as we called the position in the Navy)/incident commander has to determine the effective use of the resources on hand. As another poster mentioned, there’s not always an endless supply of water at the scene. And the OSL/IC must consider the risk to his personnel. One poster, either in this thread or one of the others on the issue, asked if it would’ve been a good idea for the home-owner to simply lie to the firefighters about someone being in the home. Well, yes, I suppose it would be if one wants to face charges, especially if one of the firefighters is injured or killed on the wild goose chase. > [@](#): > > Again I need to bring up the risk to the fire fighters involved, for the love of God won’t someone think about the fire fighters! And it would be way more sad if one those firefighters happened to get killed fighting the fire at the house of the [del]freeloader[/del] person who opted out. By the way, I do think of the firefighters as one of my nephews is a municipal firefighter. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/184 "2010-10-08T00:23:55Z")
> [@mgalindo0824](#): > > I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m most disgusted by the fact that there were pets trapped inside that died because this. Blatant animal cruelty. > > More to the point, if a human was trapped inside does the same pay for spray rule apply? Many rescue operations require minimal if any actual water application. Several of the news articles mention they will attempt a rescue is a person is deemed trapped inside. oh look its the PIT! Failing to perform a detailed search for a small animal is in your eyes animal cruelty? Well then fuck you, and your lack of respect for the lives of firefighters. In many remote jurisdictions they are even VOLUNTEERS. Why you think its a chargable criminal act not to risk your life to save a cat it completely beyond me and is honestly far more crass and shitheaded than letting the damn house burn down! You didn’t save my dog! Officer I want to press charges! Lets sue the fire department for their gross negligence and complicity in the death of my cat! What kind of fucking bizzaro world do you live in? How far up your ass is your head? Go ahead, I dare you to justify this batshit insane idea you seem to have. Oh wait, can’t say batshit, it might be considered expoitative to bats. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/185 "2010-10-08T00:31:13Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Did the family know the deal? Did they know the consequences? Did they have the option to move somewhere else if they didn’t like this deal? I get so tired of people who don’t think the rules of the society they live in apply to them, like they get some kind of “we’re special people” exemption from life. I have been accused in the past of not having compassion; it’s not true - I have a lot of compassion. It doesn’t extend as far as feeling sorry for people who don’t like the bed they made through their own free will, though. Am I sorry their house burnt down? Yes. No one deserves that. Am I infuriated by the fire department not helping them when they didn’t pay a specific fee for fire services? Not at all. A deal’s a deal, and they knew the deal. They gambled and lost. I haven’t seen you get so…“conservative” before;). But then you are an Albertan. But really, can you see this happen in Canada ? We would put the fire out and deal with the cost afterwards. Think about all those people who are in arrears with their municipal taxes. They don’t get fire protection ? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/186 "2010-10-08T00:36:34Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > > > Did the family know the deal? Did they know the consequences? Did they have the option to move somewhere else if they didn’t like this deal? I get so tired of people who don’t think the rules of the society they live in apply to them, like they get some kind of “we’re special people” exemption from life. I have been accused in the past of not having compassion; it’s not true - I have a lot of compassion. It doesn’t extend as far as feeling sorry for people who don’t like the bed they made through their own free will, though. Am I sorry their house burnt down? Yes. No one deserves that. Am I infuriated by the fire department not helping them when they didn’t pay a specific fee for fire services? Not at all. A deal’s a deal, and they knew the deal. They gambled and lost. > > I haven’t seen you get so…“conservative” before;). But then you are an Albertan. > > But really, can you see this happen in Canada ? > > We would put the fire out and deal with the cost afterwards. > Think about all those people who are in arrears with their municipal taxes. They don’t get fire protection ? Not only that, but they’d stick around afterwords to help with the clean up, get the guy a Tim’s, then build him a new shed. Damn we’re a great country! ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/187 "2010-10-08T00:45:52Z")
I would argue that this case presents a lot of interesting questions. For me, what is comes down to is whether fighting a house fire can be considered a public good. Given the risk of fires spreading and the potential of harm to people and property, I would argue that in this case it is and therefore should be subject to mandatory taxation and coverage. That said, in this particular case, there was an option to pay, the guy did not pay, and I can’t criticize the fire department for not using limited resources and putting themselves in danger to do a job that they were not legally contracted to do. However, I would hate to be the person living next door, whose property and family are put at increased risk because the person next door chooses to opt out of fire coverage. Who is to say that the fire can be put out before it destroys the neighbor’s house. What about the decrease in property values from living next to a burned-out shell? The question then is, what goods and services are essentially to maintaining the overall welfare of a society. Certainly, many will argue that bridges and roads are essential. I would argue that fire protection is also essential. In most places you can’t drive without insurance; certainly it seems reasonable that you shouldn’t be able to own property without appropriate insurance that allows for fires to be extinguished. So, to sum up my opinion: given the current laws, they should have let the house burn, but those laws should be changed. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/188 "2010-10-08T00:52:02Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > I would argue that this case presents a lot of interesting questions. For me, what is comes down to is whether fighting a house fire can be considered a public good. Given the risk of fires spreading and the potential of harm to people and property, I would argue that in this case it is and therefore should be subject to mandatory taxation and coverage. That said, in this particular case, there was an option to pay, the guy did not pay, and I can’t criticize the fire department for not using limited resources and putting themselves in danger to do a job that they were not legally contracted to do. > > However, I would hate to be the person living next door, whose property and family are put at increased risk because the person next door chooses to opt out of fire coverage. Who is to say that the fire can be put out before it destroys the neighbor’s house. What about the decrease in property values from living next to a burned-out shell? > > The question then is, what goods and services are essentially to maintaining the overall welfare of a society. Certainly, many will argue that bridges and roads are essential. I would argue that fire protection is also essential. In most places you can’t drive without insurance; certainly it seems reasonable that you shouldn’t be able to own property without appropriate insurance that allows for fires to be extinguished. > > So, to sum up my opinion: given the current laws, they should have let the house burn, but those laws should be changed. FINE I give up, you win, I’ll go change the freakin law now. Anything else your highness? Since I’ll have to get the ladder out, is there anything else that needs changing? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/189 "2010-10-08T01:08:38Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > > I haven’t seen you get so…“conservative” before;). But then you are an Albertan. > > > > But really, can you see this happen in Canada ? > > > > We would put the fire out and deal with the cost afterwards. > > Think about all those people who are in arrears with their municipal taxes. They don’t get fire protection ? > > Not only that, but they’d stick around afterwords to help with the clean up, get the guy a Tim’s, then build him a new shed. > > Damn we’re a great country! Pretty much, yeah. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/190 "2010-10-08T01:10:50Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Failing to perform a detailed search for a small animal is in your eyes animal cruelty? Well then fuck you, and your lack of respect for the lives of firefighters. In many remote jurisdictions they are even VOLUNTEERS. Why you think its a chargable criminal act not to risk your life to save a cat it completely beyond me and is honestly far more crass and shitheaded than letting the damn house burn down! You didn’t save my dog! Officer I want to press charges! Lets sue the fire department for their gross negligence and complicity in the death of my cat! > > What kind of fucking bizzaro world do you live in? How far up your ass is your head? > > Go ahead, I dare you to justify this batshit insane idea you seem to have. Oh wait, can’t say batshit, it might be considered expoitative to bats. My nephew did retrieve a cat from a burning home. The homeowner was shouting “My baby is in there!” So my nephew went in and returned with a scared kitten. Turned out the lady actually named the critter Baby. My mother, a major cat lover from the get go, was quite proud. My sister, on the other hand, was a tad upset. To quote her: “That’s not great when it’s MY BABY who’s going in after a damn animal!” Got news for the general population: a pet is not a human being. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/191 "2010-10-08T01:14:00Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > \ Got news for the general population: a pet is not a human being. Oh crap, you’ve done it now! And you thought this thread was contentious _before!!_ _(ducks and covers)_ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/192 "2010-10-08T01:27:29Z")
Question – do firefighters REALLY rescue kittens from trees? ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/193 "2010-10-08T01:33:04Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > It was mentioned above that property tax increases are always per $100 of the value of the home. > > So someone whose house is worth $100,000 would pay $130. That seems high to me, but I live in a city where $100k is on the cheap side. In the middle of a rural county, a house (and it’s a trailer home, innit?) is probably worth a good bit less than that. Depends. If it was a 13 mil increase it was 13 dollars on the $1000. I’ve always heard of property taxes calculated as millage (which is done per $1000 on the home, not $100). ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/194 "2010-10-08T01:36:02Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The homeowner who did not pay the $75 is an idiot. > > The taxpayers who voted down a small tax increase in order to extend fire protection to all are idiots > > The system that even allows voters to turn down a small tax increase for fire protection is idiotic. > > A mature society realizes that people in general are poor at assessing risk. It is to the benefit of the entire society if fire protection is extended to all, and that all are required to pay for it. It’s a necessary function of government. Without these basic functions of government, we are reduced a bunch of scrabbling individuals with much fewer comforts and services. Civilization as we know it consists of groups of people coming together and specializing so that we don’t have to do everything ourselves. > > The US suffers from the idealized (and inaccurate) vision of the “rugged individualist” who does everything themselves, and does not need any interference for the damn gubmmint. > > Libertarians will no doubt vociferously disagree, and will have all sorts of theoretical claptrap about why real life situations should be totally different from our observations. > > The bottom line in this case, is that if essentials like fire protection are left up to individuals, then some of these individuals will make poor decisions based on a poor grasp of risk assessment. The net result is a bunch of burned down buildings, and increased risk to others, which leads to a poorer society for everyone. I don’t think the general economy is helped every time a house burns down. See [Broken Window Fallacy)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window) Nope. The bottom line in this case is that you are an idiot for stomping in and calling everyone idiots because a result occurred that you don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/195 "2010-10-08T01:54:09Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > [ > Nope. The bottom line in this case is that you are an idiot for stomping in and calling everyone idiots because a result occurred that you don’t like. I’m quite content with calling a homeowner who refused to pay $75 for fire coverage an idiot. You may prefer to call him a wise consumer who made an informed choice. My mileage obviously differs from yours (thank God) ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/196 "2010-10-08T01:55:57Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > [ > > Nope. The bottom line in this case is that you are an idiot for stomping in and calling everyone idiots because a result occurred that you don’t like. > > I’m quite content with calling a homeowner who refused to pay $75 for fire coverage an idiot. You may prefer to call him a wise consumer who made an informed choice. > > My mileage obviously differs from yours (thank God) My mileage very much does differ. I treat other people like human beings and allow them to order their affairs as they see fit. You think you are EP Almighty who knows what’s best for everyone and generally wants to coerce people into doing what you think is best for them. A little humility would be nice, EP, you should try it out. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/197 "2010-10-08T02:00:59Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Question – do firefighters REALLY rescue kittens from trees? Only if the tree is on fire. and you paid your $75 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/198 "2010-10-08T02:04:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > > I’m quite content with calling a homeowner who refused to pay $75 for fire coverage an idiot. You may prefer to call him a wise consumer who made an informed choice. > > > > My mileage obviously differs from yours (thank God) > > My mileage very much does differ. I treat other people like human beings and allow them to order their affairs as they see fit. You think you are EP Almighty who knows what’s best for everyone and generally wants to coerce people into doing what you think is best for them. A little humility would be nice, EP, you should try it out. HA! Here comes the libertopia express, right on schedule. “if you don’t believe in libertopia, you must think that you (aka the evil gubmint) know what is best for everyone.” Sorry bub. That one’s as old as the hills. (or as old as Ayn Rand’s withered and dusty cooch at any rate). Yes, there are times when society should provide for the common good, even if there are lone individuals who do not know any better. Everyone is not equally endowed from birth with identical good fortune, money and opportunity. Your posturing is merely a smokescreen that allows you to crush others underfoot as you hide behind a fetid cloak of “treating them all fairly”. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/199 "2010-10-08T02:04:20Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > So my nephew went in and returned with a scared kitten. Turned out the lady actually named the critter Baby. My mother, a major cat lover from the get go, was quite proud. > > Got news for the general population: a pet is not a human being. If I was that firefighter I would have ignored the damn cat and kept looking for the baby. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/200 "2010-10-08T02:08:05Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Think about all those people who are in arrears with their municipal taxes. They don’t get fire protection ? Unpaid taxes are usually unable to be discharged in bankruptcy and will attach a lein if not paid. The mechanisms for doing so are probably far more developed than an agency with no authority to levy taxes doing so consistently and effectively. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=11)