# WTF? Pay Up or We Let Your House Burn Down? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210 "2010-10-06T03:08:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/201 "2010-10-08T02:08:46Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > My mileage very much does differ. I treat other people like human beings and allow them to order their affairs as they see fit. You think you are EP Almighty who knows what’s best for everyone and generally wants to coerce people into doing what you think is best for them. A little humility would be nice, EP, you should try it out. > > HA! Here comes the libertopia express, right on schedule. > “if you don’t believe in libertopia, you must think that you (aka the evil gubmint) know what is best for everyone.” > > Sorry bub. That one’s as old as the hills. (or as old as Ayn Rand’s withered and dusty cooch at any rate). > > Yes, there are times when society should provide for the common good, even if there are lone individuals who do not know any better. Everyone is not equally endowed from birth with identical good fortune, money and opportunity. > > Your posturing is merely a smokescreen that allows you to crush others underfoot as you hide behind a fetid cloak of “treating them all fairly”. The problem here pal is that the entire society we are talking about in this thread (i.e., the residents of Fulton County, TN) decided to cover their firefighting needs through voluntary payments. They debated a tax several times and voted it down. They’ve had this system in place for decades. So, your little show of being the protector of the common man against the uncaring masses won’t fly here–it’s a complete sham. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/202 "2010-10-08T02:16:27Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > Come on Quimby how would you “fix” this broken system? Would you make a guy an hour and half from the nearest fire station pay for a service that was useless to him? Would you build a new fire station in an area without enough population density to support it? How would you fix it? So I have to be a city planner or one of their County officials to call a system that let a guy’s house burn down while Firemen stood ten feet away stupid and broken? If you had to be an expert in a topic to criticize it, you would be able to fit the entire internet on a floppy disk. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/203 "2010-10-08T02:16:31Z")
That’s fine - I lived in a town that covered the volunteer fire department entirely out of voluntary payments. Difference is that they put the fires out at ANYONE’'S house, regardless of whether or not they had contributed anything at the last bake sale. That’s how things are run in a civilized society. Letting someone’s house burn down? Idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/204 "2010-10-08T02:16:50Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > So my nephew went in and returned with a scared kitten. Turned out the lady actually named the critter Baby. My mother, a major cat lover from the get go, was quite proud. > > > > Got news for the general population: a pet is not a human being. > > If I was that firefighter I would have ignored the damn cat and kept looking for the baby. He did search the entire dwelling. Luckily, a small dwelling 'twas. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/205 "2010-10-08T02:17:45Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@ExTank](#): > > > > Not only that, he (or at least a majority of his neighbors) voted _against_ a 13 _cent_ raise in their annual county property taxes to pay for a county-wide fire service. > > > > Maybe I flunked “new math,” but the math I was brought up on says $0.13/year \< $75.00/year. > > > > Someone check my math on this. > > It was mentioned above that property tax increases are always per $100 of the value of the home. > > So someone whose house is worth $100,000 would pay $130. That seems high to me, but I live in a city where $100k is on the cheap side. In the middle of a rural county, a house (and it’s a trailer home, innit?) is probably worth a good bit less than that. That’s what I get for skimming. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/206 "2010-10-08T02:23:15Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > That’s fine - I lived in a town that covered the volunteer fire department entirely out of voluntary payments. Difference is that they put the fires out at ANYONE’'S house, regardless of whether or not they had contributed anything at the last bake sale. > > That’s how things are run in a civilized society. Letting someone’s house burn down? Idiots. Le sigh. I guess you’ll never get it. You’ll never get some perspective. You think everyone should live their life the EP way, and if they don’t, then they are idiots who should be forced to. I prefer to allow people to make their own decisions and arrangements with other people. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/207 "2010-10-08T03:42:04Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > > That’s fine - I lived in a town that covered the volunteer fire department entirely out of voluntary payments. Difference is that they put the fires out at ANYONE’'S house, regardless of whether or not they had contributed anything at the last bake sale. > > > > That’s how things are run in a civilized society. Letting someone’s house burn down? Idiots. > > Le sigh. I guess you’ll never get it. You’ll never get some perspective. You think everyone should live their life the EP way, and if they don’t, then they are idiots who should be forced to. I prefer to allow people to make their own decisions and arrangements with other people. Because we believe firefighters should stand around and watch someone’s house burn down? Perhaps we don’t WANT to “get it”. Or perhaps, we’re not the ones who need to. If these are the results of such a system, then something is seriously fucked up. Letting someone’s house burn when you’re right there, and have the means to take care of it is immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/208 "2010-10-08T03:46:24Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > My mileage very much does differ. I treat other people like human beings and allow them to order their affairs as they see fit. You think you are EP Almighty who knows what’s best for everyone and generally wants to coerce people into doing what you think is best for them. A little humility would be nice, EP, you should try it out. I’m totally cool with a person being free to exercise their own stupidity, even if it puts themselves in danger. What is less cool is when a person’s stupidity puts _others_ in danger. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/209 "2010-10-08T04:16:19Z")
It seems to me that we have two sides here. The first side says he didn’t pay his fee/it is unfair for the residents of the town to foot the bill for a county freeloader. The other side is saying, they should have put it out anyway. SO… For all of you that think the that the fire department should have put it out, put your money where your mouth is. I will collect donations via pay pal and I will forward the money to the city fire department to pay this gentleman’s $75 on his replacement house. With all the extra money that I collect I will pay the fire fees for other people that have elected to not enroll. My email addy is in my profile. Send those donations now. I will report back in a couple of days of all the $$ I collect. Anybody want to take bets on the amount of donations? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/210 "2010-10-08T12:49:52Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > It seems to me that we have two sides here. The first side says he didn’t pay his fee/it is unfair for the residents of the town to foot the bill for a county freeloader. > The other side is saying, they should have put it out anyway. > SO… > For all of you that think the that the fire department should have put it out, put your money where your mouth is. > I will collect donations via pay pal and I will forward the money to the city fire department to pay this gentleman’s $75 on his replacement house. > With all the extra money that I collect I will pay the fire fees for other people that have elected to not enroll. > My email addy is in my profile. > Send those donations now. > I will report back in a couple of days of all the $$ I collect. > > Anybody want to take bets on the amount of donations? I’m not sure if you’re kidding, but I fully expect the following to happen: 1. A sizable number of people will donate $75, to make sure no one in that area is without fire protection. Why? Because they’re liberals and that’s what they do. They see suffering, remove fault, and then pick up the tab. 2. A smaller number of people will offer money for restoration, building materials, furniture, clothing, meals, etc. Even though the guy has insurance. Again, why? Because they’re liberals, and that’s what they do. 3. Lastly, there will be an even smaller number of people, that will donate to his legal _defense_ team so that he can properly punish the municipality and the fire department for their insolence. I don’t want to say what group is going to do this, but they will, and they’ll win. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/211 "2010-10-08T13:03:13Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > My mileage very much does differ. I treat other people like human beings and allow them to order their affairs as they see fit. You think you are EP Almighty who knows what’s best for everyone and generally wants to coerce people into doing what you think is best for them. A little humility would be nice, EP, you should try it out. > > I’m totally cool with a person being free to exercise their own stupidity, even if it puts themselves in danger. > > What is less cool is when a person’s stupidity puts _others_ in danger. By extension though, the neighbour was just as stupid as Cranick. Everyone in that area happily abides by the system in place. They know there is a chance their neighbour doesn’t have protection, and DECIDED to participate–they were okay with that risk. If the neighbour’s house had caught fire and burned to the ground, what is the guy supposed to say? Should he THEN demand that Cranick be FORCED to pay the subscription fee? The time to make those demands is a bit late in the game. A game the happily participated in because it meant they paid $75 instead of a proposed $130 Cranick didn’t act alone in this. And although I personally see Cranick’s actions as culpable in putting others in danger, he didn’t come up with this on his own. Others put themselves in danger. They freely move into, and then lived, in this system. It’s 20 years too late to suddenly decide the risk is too high. In other words, \*Cranick’s society \*doesn’t care the same way you do. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/212 "2010-10-08T13:10:25Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > > [@Rick](#): > > > > It seems to me that we have two sides here. The first side says he didn’t pay his fee/it is unfair for the residents of the town to foot the bill for a county freeloader. > > The other side is saying, they should have put it out anyway. > > SO… > > For all of you that think the that the fire department should have put it out, put your money where your mouth is. > > I will collect donations via pay pal and I will forward the money to the city fire department to pay this gentleman’s $75 on his replacement house. > > With all the extra money that I collect I will pay the fire fees for other people that have elected to not enroll. > > My email addy is in my profile. > > Send those donations now. > > I will report back in a couple of days of all the $$ I collect. > > > > Anybody want to take bets on the amount of donations? > > I’m not sure if you’re kidding, but I fully expect the following to happen: > > 1. A sizable number of people will donate $75, to make sure no one in that area is without fire protection. Why? Because they’re liberals and that’s what they do. They see suffering, remove fault, and then pick up the tab. It has only been 9 hours, but so far the running total is $0 > [@](#): > > 1. A smaller number of people will offer money for restoration, building materials, furniture, clothing, meals, etc. Even though the guy has insurance. Again, why? Because they’re liberals, and that’s what they do. Too silly to even respond to > [@](#): > > 1. Lastly, there will be an even smaller number of people, that will donate to his legal _defense_ team so that he can properly punish the municipality and the fire department for their insolence. I don’t want to say what group is going to do this, but they will, and they’ll win. That word defense, I don’t think it means what you think it means. And why would the idijt de jour win? It would be like suing State Farm because they did not cover your accident because you did not pay the premium. No payment no coverage. Seems like a simple concept, but a bunch of people here don’t seem to get it. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/213 "2010-10-08T13:12:46Z")
emackknight I never get involved in these discussions but you’ve even irked me enough. Would you shut the fuck up about liberals when you don’t know a damn thing about them? I am liberal and don’t intend to give a red cent to this benighted county. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/214 "2010-10-08T13:18:15Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > > [@emacknight](#): > > > > 1. Lastly, there will be an even smaller number of people, that will donate to his legal _defense_ team so that he can properly punish the municipality and the fire department for their insolence. I don’t want to say what group is going to do this, but they will, and they’ll win. > > That word defense, I don’t think it means what you think it means. And why would the idijt de jour win? It would be like suing State Farm because they did not cover your accident because you did not pay the premium. No payment no coverage. Seems like a simple concept, but a bunch of people here don’t seem to get it. Think about everything you know about the US legal system. Think about every frivolous lawsuit that nets some idiot millions. This thread is a pretty good indication of what a “jury of his peers” thinks. 1. The fire department saved him before, now he can expect they’ll save him again. 2. The FD was there at the scene. 3. There is a _chance_ the municipality will settle. 4. The legal system isn’t based on logic, as much as we’d like it to be, it just isn’t. Oh, and for the record, I had the little ironic italics over “defense,” I was playing a joke based on all the other stupid legal defense donations made to idijt de jour like James O’Keefe. But the sad reality is that people see this as an action done TO Cranick by the FD, not to himself by himself. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/215 "2010-10-08T13:22:03Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > emackknight I never get involved in these discussions but you’ve even irked me enough. Would you shut the fuck up about liberals when you don’t know a damn thing about them? I am liberal and don’t intend to give a red cent to this benighted county. Tonge in cheek, stop being such a liberal and unbunch your panties. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/216 "2010-10-08T13:33:22Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > In other words, \*Cranick’s society \*doesn’t care the same way you do. Maybe they will now. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/217 "2010-10-08T13:34:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Le sigh. I guess you’ll never get it. You’ll never get some perspective. You think everyone should live their life the EP way, and if they don’t, then they are idiots who should be forced to. I prefer to allow people to make their own decisions and arrangements with other people. > > Because we believe firefighters should stand around and watch someone’s house burn down? Perhaps we don’t WANT to “get it”. > Or perhaps, we’re not the ones who need to. If these are the results of such a system, then something is seriously fucked up. Letting someone’s house burn when you’re right there, and have the means to take care of it is immoral. Thanks for nicely illustrating what I said in my first post to this thread. You don’t like the result of people’s arrangements, so you think someone had a moral obligation to achieve the result you want achieved. Why can’t you just STFU and let people arrange their affairs in their own way? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/218 "2010-10-08T13:40:46Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@emacknight](#): > > > > In other words, \*Cranick’s society \*doesn’t care the same way you do. > > Maybe they will now. Maybe, but they didn’t the last three times a house burned down. Or after a barn (that may have included a horse) burned down. Or even the last time this happened to Cranick. His neighbours seem fine with the risk. And as I write that, I look out my window and notice how freakin close my left neighbour is. I have no idea what he’s doing in there that might be putting me at risk. But there is nothing I can do. How much control over him can I as a neighbour have? Thank og I have a municipal fire department to put the fire out AFTER it starts, and AFTER it destroys part of my house. Maybe that’s the issue here. Part of living in society is accepting the risks that come with it, imposed on us by other people. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/219 "2010-10-08T14:37:19Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > It seems to me that we have two sides here. The first side says he didn’t pay his fee/it is unfair for the residents of the town to foot the bill for a county freeloader. > The other side is saying, they should have put it out anyway. > SO… > For all of you that think the that the fire department should have put it out, put your money where your mouth is. > I will collect donations via pay pal and I will forward the money to the city fire department to pay this gentleman’s $75 on his replacement house. > With all the extra money that I collect I will pay the fire fees for other people that have elected to not enroll. > My email addy is in my profile. > Send those donations now. > I will report back in a couple of days of all the $$ I collect. I have a counter proposal: why don’t you shove your smug bullshit up your ass? All I have been saying all along is the system they had in that area clearly sucked. How do I know? A guy’s house burned down while people who’s job it is to stop a house from burning down watched. If you don’t think there’s anything wrong with that at all then I am sorry but there is something wrong with you. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/220 "2010-10-08T14:37:50Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The real issue is that Cranick didn’t care enough about his house to make it worth saving. So what if it burns to the ground? We as a society really don’t care that much about anything else he owns, why care so much about his house? Personally, I care insofar as his not having coverage made his home a greater danger to everyone around him \*with \*coverage. If everyone is covered, you can start controlling fires as soon as they’re reported. If some people opt out, you have to let the fire take its course until it threatens covered property, at which point it’s potentially much more dangerous. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > That’s how things are run in a civilized society. Letting someone’s house burn down? Idiots. So glad to hear you’re moving out to Bumblefuck Tennessee to start a volunteer fire department. Oh, wait, what’s that, you’re blowing hot air out your ass? What a shock. > [@emacknight](#): > > [snip] You know, I was going to respond to this, but then I realized you’re trolling. > [@emacknight](#): > > Think about every frivolous lawsuit that nets some idiot millions. Cite? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=12)