# WTF? Pay Up or We Let Your House Burn Down? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210 "2010-10-06T03:08:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/521 "2010-10-18T22:23:29Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > I do, sorry. It clearly implies that he knew he had not paid, but expected a response anyway. And if he got that response, why should anyone outside the metropolitan areas ever pay again? Yes, how _dare_ you disagree with me 🙂 I guess we’ll have to agree to differ on this one. > [@MHaye](#): > > That would require incurring considerable legal fees, which are paid for by who, exactly? In this case it would be the taxpayers of the city. Is that fair? > > You might also wish to consider the PR effects of headlines like “FD SUES MAN WHO"S LOST EVERYTHING FOR FEES.” It would be a disaster. This is the bit I’m having the most trouble with. Surely, if a customer like Cranick refused to follow through with a promise to pay X amount made at the scene of his/her house fire, and if the fire department had proof that they had provided their services, what’s to stop them suing for everything, equipment, resources, court costs, legal fees, the lot? After all, it’d be a cold-blooded bastard who’d rule against an FD trying to get what they’re owed after saving somebody’s house. As for the PR question, well, I guess they’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t. They’re certainly getting an awful lot of bad PR for letting Cranick’s house burn down. I, for one, would certainly be more sympathetic to the FD if they’d extinguished the fire and then sued Cranick if he refused to pay. I can’t see any cites in this thread which give a clear answer to this question. Then again, this thread is about eight million posts long so I admit I may have missed something. > [@CannyDan](#): > > Now, how about all you johnny-come-lately assholes actually read the fucking thread before offering your stupid comments, kaythnxbye. > [@Shot From Guns](#): > > Read the fucking thread or get the fuck out. Don’t be a lazy dick and make us repeat ourselves for the fiftieth fucking time. > > Although it appears that someone already did. But you deserve to be told anyway. Aw, why can’t you be nice 🙂 No-one’s made anybody do anything. Y’all could’ve just ignored me. I wouldn’t have taken it personally. FYI, I _did_ have a look through the thread before posting, but at no point did I see my specific questions fully addressed. Perhaps, had I the time or inclination to perform the post-by-post Talmudic analysis this thread apparently deserves, I would have stumbled across some illuminating titbit which would have allayed my concerns, but since the damn thread’s longer than War and Peace, and since it seems the only person arguing this poor bastard’s case is **gonzomax** , who is to numbskulls what Carlsbad Caverns is to a hollow in a rock, I decided to post, perhaps in haste, just to make sure I wasn’t missing anything. I was wrong. And the salty tears of my contrition are unbearably bitter. Tell you what, I’ll extend the olive branch. I present to you my balls. Feel free to draw upon them succulently at your leisure. Oh, and by the way, 😛 ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/522 "2010-10-18T22:41:21Z")
> [@George\_Kaplin](#): > > This is the bit I’m having the most trouble with. Surely, if a customer like Cranick refused to follow through with a promise to pay X amount made at the scene of his/her house fire, and if the fire department had proof that they had provided their services, what’s to stop them suing for everything, equipment, resources, court costs, legal fees, the lot? After all, it’d be a cold-blooded bastard who’d rule against an FD trying to get what they’re owed after saving somebody’s house. 1. You can’t get blood from a turnip. The largest asset most people have is their home. Even if they saved it from total destruction, he wouldn’t be worth much. 2. A lot of jury members see the government as the Big Bad vs. Average Joe. Don’t be so sure you’d see the verdict you were looking for. 3. Suing someone takes a lot of money and there’s no guarantee of a positive outcome. 4. Cranick refused to pay the fee. If they showed up, he has a pretty solid argument that they were gifting their services, especially if he was billed for the prior fire and never paid. 5. You can’t just post-bill someone for fees that they never anticipated and never agreed to pay. The courts would never uphold such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/523 "2010-10-19T00:38:35Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > 1. You can’t get blood from a turnip. The largest asset most people have is their home. Even if they saved it from total destruction, he wouldn’t be worth much. > > 2. A lot of jury members see the government as the Big Bad vs. Average Joe. Don’t be so sure you’d see the verdict you were looking for. > > 3. Suing someone takes a lot of money and there’s no guarantee of a positive outcome. > > 4. Cranick refused to pay the fee. If they showed up, he has a pretty solid argument that they were gifting their services, especially if he was billed for the prior fire and never paid. > > 5. You can’t just post-bill someone for fees that they never anticipated and never agreed to pay. The courts would never uphold such a thing. Well said. Too bad we’re on page 11 and people are still making the same retarded arguments. I’m just going to assume no one bothered to read your post and will once again suggest that the fire department could have just billed him after the fact. Queue **Gonzomax** in 5, 4, 3, … ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/524 "2010-10-19T03:28:20Z")
> [@SoulFrost](#): > > Dousing any house that is burning in the area is part of protecting the subscribers. Uncontrolled fire goes where it damn well wants. > > Kill it at its source and you won’t have to worry about it spreading in three different directions at once (which would really, really suck if there are no fire hydrants.) Call me silly but I think it’s a lot easier to control a spark landing on the neighbor’s roof than it is to fight the fire engulfing Cranick’s shack. I’m probably going to regret this; however, I’m curious what the answers will be. The fire department concerned evidently offers subscriber service to those outside of the city limits but within 5 miles of said limits. What if they’re responding to a subscriber’s home located right at the 5-mile limit and then they notice a home burning about a 1/4 mile further away from the limits? Must they respond to this obvious non-subscriber? What if they do respond and they notice yet another home on fire, also further away from the limit? Say they respond to that one too and…well, at what limit is this fire department no longer responsible for providing free fire service to those not in the community funding, training, and provisioning the fire department? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/525 "2010-10-19T03:46:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Call me silly but I think it’s a lot easier to control a spark landing on the neighbor’s roof than it is to fight the fire engulfing Cranick’s shack. > > I’m probably going to regret this; however, I’m curious what the answers will be. The fire department concerned evidently offers subscriber service to those outside of the city limits but within 5 miles of said limits. What if they’re responding to a subscriber’s home located right at the 5-mile limit and then they notice a home burning about a 1/4 mile further away from the limits? Must they respond to this obvious non-subscriber? What if they do respond and they notice yet another home on fire, also further away from the limit? Say they respond to that one too and…well, at what limit is this fire department no longer responsible for providing free fire service to those not in the community funding, training, and provisioning the fire department? The answer is simple, everyone deserves equal protection, regardless of race, income, or where you choose to live. The fire fighters have a duty to fight any and all fires, as their name suggests. ---
**Author:** ![adhemar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@adhemar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhemar)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/526 "2010-10-19T04:20:39Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > will once again suggest that the fire department could have just billed him after the fact. So if the volunteer fire department billed someone after the fact for putting out the fire what would be the point of anyone ever paying the yearly subscription fee? You would stupid to pay the fee year after year if you could just pay once your house has been saved. If the volunteer fire department put out the fires of people who did not subscribe because “it’s the right thing for firefighters to do” again you would be stupid to pay the money each year when you can get it for free. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/527 "2010-10-19T05:16:30Z")
earlier int the day I heard about a community that bills out of town auto accident victims for Fire department and emergency rescue costs. Someone’s got to pay for that right ? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/528 "2010-10-19T06:49:19Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The answer is simple, everyone deserves equal protection, regardless of race, income, or where you choose to live. The fire fighters have a duty to fight any and all fires, as their name suggests. I thought the name of the outfit was South Fulton Fire Department, not “Fire Department for the Whole Planet.” Now, if we could just manage to get something like the latter, then there would be no problem and homeowners such as Cranick would be paying the taxes for that. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/529 "2010-10-19T13:10:46Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I thought the name of the outfit was South Fulton Fire Department, not “Fire Department for the Whole Planet.” Nope, once you sign up to be a fire fighter, that’s it, you’re responsible for everyone, no matter what. > [@Monty](#): > > Now, if we could just manage to get something like the latter, then there would be no problem and homeowners such as Cranick would be paying the taxes for that. Ha. As if Cranick pays any taxes. Switching to a tax based system would have actually let him freeload. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/530 "2010-10-19T20:51:09Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > earlier int the day I heard about a community that bills out of town auto accident victims for Fire department and emergency rescue costs. > > Someone’s got to pay for that right ? :rolleyes: The Volunteer Fire Dept. I work with at times does that. They get a minimal amount of money for gear from a property tax. Most of their new gear comes from writing grant proposals. They put out some fires during the dry season, but most of their call-outs are for accidents on the local interstate. The Fire Chief invoices the insurance company of the driver(s) for reimbursement, though I know that when busy he hits the trucking firms first, and invoices the family on vacation last (or not at all in reality). ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/531 "2010-10-19T22:27:56Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Call me silly but I think it’s a lot easier to control a spark landing on the neighbor’s roof than it is to fight the fire engulfing Cranick’s shack. > > I’m probably going to regret this; however, I’m curious what the answers will be. The fire department concerned evidently offers subscriber service to those outside of the city limits but within 5 miles of said limits. What if they’re responding to a subscriber’s home located right at the 5-mile limit and then they notice a home burning about a 1/4 mile further away from the limits? Must they respond to this obvious non-subscriber? What if they do respond and they notice yet another home on fire, also further away from the limit? Say they respond to that one too and…well, at what limit is this fire department no longer responsible for providing free fire service to those not in the community funding, training, and provisioning the fire department? Well sure, it could be just a spark or two. Or it could set the neighbor’s whole house ablaze. While the firefighters are dealing with the sparks or the blaze, maybe another neighbor’s house catches fire. Then another. Then another another. Maybe a natural gas line gets hot. Maybe a propane tank does, instead. Maybe both at once. Maybe any of these starts a grass fire that burns all the houses down or a forest fire that sweeps into the next state. You don’t fuck with fire. IMO, the firefighters in your scenario should fight every fire they encounter until they are out of resources to fight fires with. Long before that point arrives, backup from the surrounding communities should be called in to help. They should also notify the FBI to track down your serial arsonist. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/532 "2010-10-19T22:48:04Z")
> [@SoulFrost](#): > > Well sure, it could be just a spark or two. Or it could set the neighbor’s whole house ablaze. While the firefighters are dealing with the sparks or the blaze, maybe another neighbor’s house catches fire. Then another. Then another another. I sure hope they all paid their subscription fee. Which goes back to the point I’ve now made on each of the past 13 pages: if it’s important to those neighbours, they should have paid for Cranick’s subscription fee. The mechanism is in place, and nothing to stop them. Why do you suppose no one else volunteered to pay his subscription fee? > [@SoulFrost](#): > > Maybe a natural gas line gets hot. Maybe a propane tank does, instead. Maybe both at once. > > Maybe any of these starts a grass fire that burns all the houses down or a forest fire that sweeps into the next state. Holy fuck, firefighting sounds dangerous and expensive. Perhaps you could tell us how you plan to fund this magical fire department that gets tough on fires? And perhaps you could tell us who is responsible for the firefighters involved? I’ve asked that on each of these past 12 pages and no one seems to give a shit about the firefighters. As if they are magically protected from injury or death. > [@SoulFrost](#): > > You don’t fuck with fire. Good point. So why did Cranick [a] refuse to pay his subscription fee, and \*\* let his grand_child_ fuck with fire? > [@SoulFrost](#): > > IMO, the firefighters in your scenario should fight every fire they encounter until \*\*they are out of resources \*\*to fight fires with. Long before that point arrives, backup from the surrounding communities should be called in to help. Okay, so we have it. The firefighters were out of resources. Had Cranick paid his $75, they’d have had enough resources to fight his fire. > [@SoulFrost](#): > > They should also notify the FBI to track down your serial arsonist. We don’t need to the FBI, I did the leg work on my own and concluded it was the grand_child_, had to beat a confession out of him though so it might not hold up in court. [quote=“SoulFrost, post:531, topic:556210”] ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/533 "2010-10-19T23:53:26Z")
Have you ever actually _seen_ what a fire can do? If you live down the street from another Mr. Cranick and that idiot catches fire, then it’s your fire, too. Paid, not paid, in the right, in the wrong–everybody burns. We, as a society, used to know this. Who’ll fund it? I reckon it’d be the same sort of people who fund fire protection programs all across America without any of this sort of just-let-it-burn dumbassery. Who’s responsible for the firefighters? Like soldiers and cops and anyone else who works in a high-risk environment, they’re pretty much responsible for each others’ personal safety. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/534 "2010-10-20T00:59:53Z")
> [@SoulFrost](#): > > We, as a society, used to know this. And the people who forgot this… no, the people who consciously and repeatedly voted against this collectively, and individually by not paying the subscription fee… are Crannick and the people of the county. This isn’t about a lack of fellow-feeling between humans. This is about a group of people deliberately removing themselves from the basic compact that you identify. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/535 "2010-10-20T01:18:31Z")
> [@SoulFrost](#): > > Have you ever actually _seen_ what a fire can do? Yes. I’ve seen it when I was in a building on land and on a ship at sea. > [@](#): > > If you live down the street from another Mr. Cranick and that idiot catches fire, then it’s your fire, too. Paid, not paid, in the right, in the wrong–everybody burns. Actually, it’s not “my fire” until and unless it actually does spread to “my place.” And not everybody or even everything burns if the fire is controlled. A controlled fire can still result in a burned down building while the surrounding buildings remain safe. > [@](#): > > We, as a society, used to know this. To be blunt, that’s an emotional response. A fair number of rural communities in Tennessee decided for themselves that they would not have their own fire protection nor would the rural government pay for another jurisdiction which does fund fire protection services to extend service to the rural areas. What the rural community decided collectively (you’re familiar, I trust, with the concept of voting) that those individuals who wish to have fire protection from the adjacent municipalities (up to a certain limit, of course; in the case at point, that limit is 5 miles) can do so by enrolling in an incredibly cheap plan, one which costs a mere 75 US Dollars per year. > [@](#): > > Who’ll fund it? I reckon it’d be the same sort of people who fund fire protection programs all across America without any of this sort of just-let-it-burn dumbassery. The folks out in the country decided already that they’re thrilled with the “just-let-it-burn dumbassery” as they’re the ones who decided that only those who wish to have fire protection will get that from elsewhere. In this case, the elsewhere happens to be a municipality which generously and cheaply offers its services to those outside of its jurisdictions (up to a certain distance, mind you) if those individuals enroll in the afore-mentioned cheaper than dirt service. > [@](#): > > Who’s responsible for the firefighters? Like soldiers and cops and anyone else who works in a high-risk environment, they’re pretty much responsible for each others’ personal safety. You do realize police officers, soldiers, and even firefighters are required to follow operating procedures, don’t you? They can’t just grab the organizational equipment and tool around the country like a comic book superhero. This is real life. Real life is that, as Cranick’s place was on fire on a previous occasion, Cranick was well aware that his place can burn. Real life is that Cranick thought he had something better to do with the $75. Real life is that he made a conscious decision. Now he’s looking for sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/536 "2010-10-20T01:55:45Z")
Getting your snark on again today, **Monty**? I feel that any fire in your area _is_ your fire simply because the fire could just as easily spread to “your place” as to any other. Fire is, by nature, unpredictable and unruly. One good gust of wind is all it takes to turn a controlled fire into a wildfire. So no, no nearby structures are “safe”. I agree that Cranick is an asshole, a user, and deserves what happened to him. I disagree that letting his place burn was in the best interests of the paying subscribers. You feel otherwise, and that’s ok. It just means that I’m still right and you’re still wrong. Ciao. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/537 "2010-10-20T01:58:24Z")
What are you on about, **SoulFrost**? ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/538 "2010-10-20T02:30:29Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The answer is simple, everyone deserves equal protection, regardless of race, income, or where you choose to live. The fire fighters have a duty to fight any and all fires, as their name suggests. Within their jurisdiction…that jurisdiction does not extend to Cranicks area unless he pays. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/539 "2010-10-20T02:36:35Z")
**drachillix** : **emacknight** was “channelling” (pretending to be) **gonzomax** there. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/540 "2010-10-20T02:38:51Z")
> [@SoulFrost](#): > > Long before that point arrives, backup from the surrounding communities should be called in to help. You do realize in most areas, the cities do charge each other for this assistance. In addition, when you are talking rural areas, the next engine may be 20-30 miles away. If they are lucky, they will arrive just in time to rinse the ashes off the foundation. ALOT of people in here are stuck in the thinking that takes metropolitan fire departments completely for granted. Rural fire departments and coverage in state/federal responsibility areas is often worthless for dealing with a fast developing situation. They may be able to converge on a wildland fire within 6-8 hours to create an effective response, but a structure fire is effectively over in an hour, if it takes 20 min to arrive you are already just looking at a surround and drown situation with zero hope of saving anything. Even in CA where the vast majority of firefighters are paid and employed in the biz there are areas that would require 30-45 min for the first engine to arrive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=28)