# WTF? Pay Up or We Let Your House Burn Down? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210 "2010-10-06T03:08:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/701 "2010-10-27T02:47:18Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > After all, cops, EMT’s, doctors don’t decide your worthiness, they just deliver care. I pay taxes so that cops, EMTs, doctors et al. can deliver services to the indigent. I don’t expect anyone to deliver emergency services for free. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/702 "2010-10-27T02:56:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > But in this thread you surely are. A bunch of cold hearted people talking yourself into a lynch mob because Cranick made a mistake. I get it. he is not as good as you people are and his errors deserve the ultimate punishment. He is a low life that deserves nothing, no sympathy, no empathy . > But I feel badly for him, his family and his animals. Live with it. Because you can enjoy the pain and misery of another does not mean everybody can. I feel bad for his animals, but how can you feel bad for a man that left his pets confined in the house for hours as the fire crept closer and closer until it killed them? I find it sick that you support such behavior and expect people to go out of their way to help such a fucker. I can’t believe you enjoy those animals being burnt to death. You disgust me. ---
**Author:** ![StephanieLynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/46a35a/32.png) [@StephanieLynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StephanieLynn)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/703 "2010-10-27T04:37:57Z")
The sad, but very real truth is that some people need to be made examples of in order for others to do the right thing. Crannick didn’t pay. Of course it’s only human nature to want to insist that the fire department had a moral obligation to overlook this and help him anyway, but like many have pointed out, if people thought they could get the service without paying anyway, nobody would pay. I bet alot more residents will pay the $75 dollars next time around, which is as it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Zhen\_ka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecccb3/32.png) [@Zhen\_ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zhen_ka)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/704 "2010-10-27T06:00:51Z")
> [@StephanieLynn](#): > > The sad, but very real truth is that some people need to be made examples of in order for others to do the right thing. Crannick didn’t pay. Of course it’s only human nature to want to insist that the fire department had a moral obligation to overlook this and help him anyway, but like many have pointed out, if people thought they could get the service without paying anyway, nobody would pay. I bet alot more residents will pay the $75 dollars next time around, which is as it should be. And…StephanieLynn for the WIN!!! ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/705 "2010-10-27T13:49:12Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > **gonzomax** , I don’t mind you indiscriminately accusing the people who disagree with you of harboring despicable philosophies or motives (“they must be gloating in Crannick’s misfortune and sadistically revelling in the painful death of dumb animals!”), because, frankly, reason and civil discourse have little to offer your point of view, argumentatively speaking. > > Try this: say openly that while being an outlaw naturally excludes one from the law’s protection as well as its restrictions, and refusal to participate in an agreement logically excludes one from the agreement’s benefits as well as its costs, that you wish the fire department had tried to put out the fire because a civil society extends the best protection it can even to the rogues and misfits who, spurred by no pathology save greed and solipcism, detract from civil society even as they demand its protection. That’s an argument we liberals might not agree 100% with (and someone as liberal as me just might), but wouldn’t gag on, so to speak. While you’re at it, admit that a trailer fire is often a lost cause no matter what, because that’s the truth, and that there’s every reason to believe that the residents’ own failure to save their animals and other property (maybe coupled with the fact that they burned it all up their ownselves) is more culpable for their loss than the department’s tactics, because that’s the truth too. > > Finally, try this: the idea that individuals should contribute collectively to a civil society’s effort to solve communal problems that do not affect everyone is a liberal one, the proposition that we should strive to limit the number and kind of problems we approach this way is conservative, and the proposition that the individual should have no truck with such cooperative solutions except on an ad-hoc, short-term basis is extreme libertarian. The stance that one can be an extreme libertarian when thinking of others, claim liberal largesse for oneself when in need, and say that those who don’t think this way are evil conservatives, is not liberal, conservative, or libertarian. It ain’t even political: it’s just childish, hypocritical slush that is being condemned by anyone with a conscience. > > I’ve known and liked animals, and I’ve known and liked and been related to firefighters. For you to continue to insist on risking the latter to save the former on behalf of someone who seems to have valued neither isn’t morality, it’s the opposite. Damn. Said everything I wanted to say. Said everything I tried to say. Said it better. Kudos. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/706 "2010-10-27T15:16:34Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > It means we both love Fox News. By misspelling it, he has taken them to task and thus, by association, us. But it doesn’t make any _sense_! Are gnus notoriously unreliable, or something? I mean, I could see Fox “News” or even Faux News, but Fox Gnus?! On the other hand, it’s **gonzo** , so expecting coherence is probably a bit much. > [@Giraffe](#): > > ::single tear slides down cheek:: Bonus points if you’re a fake Indian. > [@elbows](#): > > So if your, uninsured, fifteen year old spawn, imitating the latest Jackass movie, causes himself grievous injury the doctor at the hospital should decide, “Shit he caused it with his own stupidity - no health care or pain meds for him!” Or would you expect him to do what doctors are sworn to do, deliver care, treat pain, etc? Not remotely comparable. If a vapid twenty-three year old woman shows up at the ER and demands that someone give her a boob job so that she can land a rich husband, do you expect the doctors to “deliver care”? After all, it’s what they’re “sworn to do”! You moron. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/707 "2010-10-27T15:22:22Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > But it doesn’t make any _sense_! Are gnus notoriously unreliable, or something? I mean, I could see Fox “News” or even Faux News, but Fox Gnus?! As you can see [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAwVIZDAUF0) there is a long history of excellent Gnu broadcasting. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/708 "2010-10-27T15:43:44Z")
The argument that allowing his home to burn down and his animals to die, is a proper way to send a message to all the others who might not pay the 75 bucks., is stupid When he offered to pay thousands to have his home saved, they should have taken it. All the other people, who you must think are just waiting to not pay the 75 bucks, would have seen him pay thousands. So they would have thought, pay 75 don’t get tapped for thousands. The message that you think is worth allowing a home to burn down and animals die, would have been sent. His home would be standing, his animals alive. That would have been the right response. You guys don’t think very well do you? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/709 "2010-10-27T15:49:56Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The argument that allowing his home to burn down and his animals to die, is a proper way to send a message to all the others who might not pay the 75 bucks., is stupid When he offered to pay thousands to have his home saved, they should have taken it. All the other people, who you must think are just waiting to not pay the 75 bucks, would have seen him pay thousands. So they would have thought, pay 75 don’t get tapped for thousands. The message that you think is worth allowing a home to burn down and animals die, would have been sent. His home would be standing, his animals alive. That would have been the right response. > You guys don’t think very well do you? Okay, let’s pretend we implement your system. Now people have the choice to either pay $75 for unlimited protection, or they can “offer” an amount after a fire has started, let’s say it’s $1000. Please, tell us oh great thinking one, tell us how many people will actually pay the $1000, and how many people will refuse. Show all of us uncaring, heartless, idiots. Use your magical powers of incite to show us that this system would work and that Cranick’s house would have been saved. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/710 "2010-10-27T15:54:47Z")
So do police get to with hold protections from people they deem undeserving? Say a crack whore who gets beat up by a john? Do they get to say, “Hey, you took the risk, your own stupidity, you’re not contributing cash, no protection for you!” Or a doctor, does he get to choose who to administer care to based on their worthiness? You don’t pay taxes, no pain meds! This accident was caused by your own stupidity, take your broken leg on home! The measure of a compassionate society is not how it treats the ‘haves’, but the ‘have nots’. Basic services like EMT, police protection, access to healthcare should not be based on what you have (deep pockets) or your character (worthiness). ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/711 "2010-10-27T16:02:23Z")
You’re not getting it, **elbows**. The analogies you cite fail because in them, the people needing help have already paid taxes, even if it’s only sales tax. They get the benefits because they’ve paid their dues, even if indirectly. Cranick was in an unusual situation where he had the option of directly paying what was, effectively, the fire tax. He declined to pay the fire tax. Therefore he wasn’t covered. I’m a moderate liberal who thinks social services are a pretty neat thing, but they have to be paid for. Normally you can’t single someone out and say “He skimped, deny him police services,” but in this case it was possible. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/712 "2010-10-27T16:12:08Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > When he offered to pay thousands to have his home saved, they should have taken it. Oh, well since he OFFERED to pay thousands, it’s ok. I’m sure he’s got tons of money just lying around, what with saving so much by buying a double wide and burning his trash instead of having it safely hauled away. It’s not like anyone would ever refuse to pay for emergency services after the fact, once the emergency is over. Never happens, except when it does happen, which is all the time. Note for the record that other FDs that provide services to the County on a “pay after the fact” basis are all planning to move to a subscription basis, because of how many people don’t pay. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/713 "2010-10-27T16:21:06Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > The measure of a compassionate society is not how it treats the ‘haves’, but the ‘have nots’. Basic services like EMT, police protection, access to healthcare should not be based on what you have (deep pockets) or your character (worthiness). Are you fucking retarded? Cranick didn’t “not deserve” the services of the FD because he \*COULDN’T \*pay. He could. He _CHOSE NOT TO_, because he is greedy and selfish. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/714 "2010-10-27T16:22:51Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Okay, let’s pretend we implement your system. Now people have the choice to either pay $75 for unlimited protection, or they can “offer” an amount after a fire has started, let’s say it’s $1000. > > Please, tell us oh great thinking one, tell us how many people will actually pay the $1000, and how many people will refuse. Heck, even if we assume that every single person ponies up the $1000, that doesn’t necessarily fix the problem, given that fire services are a fixed ongoing cost and fires are variable. As I posted earlier in the thread: > [@Giraffe](#): > > Not to mention that it’s not even clear what price the department could/should have charged him: the way precautionary services work is that everyone splits the salaries and equipment costs of the people needed to fight fires, so they’re available when needed. If people can opt out of this and just pay on demand, where does that salary money come from when there haven’t been any fires for a year or two? Can you charge that next uncovered homeowner for the cost of two years salary and benefits and fire engine repairs? If you knew you’d have 500 fires / year, then you can afford to have a higher on demand cost for putting out someone’s fire. But what if you have two fires? How many fire trucks does $2000 buy you? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/715 "2010-10-27T16:40:11Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > So do police get to with hold protections from people they deem undeserving? Say a crack whore who gets beat up by a john? Do they get to say, “Hey, you took the risk, your own stupidity, you’re not contributing cash, no protection for you!” > > Or a doctor, does he get to choose who to administer care to based on their worthiness? You don’t pay taxes, no pain meds! This accident was caused by your own stupidity, take your broken leg on home! You’re way off base. But to help get you back on the field: Canada has tax payer health care, the US does not. Do Canadian doctors have a duty of care to Americans? Should doctors in Windsor be morally bound to drive across to Detroit and provide service? If an American calls up a Canadian doctor and says, “Help, I need a doctor, I’ll pay anything.” Does the Canadian doctor have any obligation to him? Even in the US doctors are not required to treat people that can’t pay. My clinic has a huge sign that says those without insurance have to pay cash up front. And even in the case of the ER, their obligation only goes so far as life saving treatment, and nothing more. You’ll notice that the fire department provided the life saving part. You’ll also notice that an ER is not, in any way, required to save the life of an animal. Period. You’ll also notice that as far as I can tell, no Vet is obligated to provide life saving treatment to an animal. Feel free to correct me on this. You’re confusing tax based services (ie police) with a paid subscription service (private security). If I contract with a rentacop or Alarmforce they’ll drive around and protect my property. If I don’t have a subscription, they have no obligation to me. > [@elbows](#): > > The measure of a compassionate society is not how it treats the ‘haves’, but the ‘have nots’. Basic services like EMT, police protection, access to healthcare \*\*should not be \*\*based on what you have (deep pockets) or your character (worthiness). You are 100% correct, they \*\*should not be \*\*. Which is how the rest of the civilized world operates. Fire and police are paid for through property taxes. Those with bigger homes will pay more than smaller, but still receive the same service. That is how it **should** be. In Cranick’s neighbourhood, they decided 20 years ago that they were taxed enough. Let me say that again, they CHOOSE to have a subscription service, 20 years ago. And ever since it’s been that way. Residents that choose to pay will receive fire services from a neighbouring town. Those that choose to not pay will have to save their animals and extinguish fires in some other way. Cranick’s area made the choice to NOT have a fire department. As a result, no fire department has an obligation to them. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/716 "2010-10-27T17:02:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Even in the US doctors are not required to treat people that can’t pay. My clinic has a huge sign that says those without insurance have to pay cash up front. I can’t decide if it’s sadder that this is so, or that someone would defend it. A crack whore chooses to take drugs, chooses to get into the car with a john, doesn’t pay health insurance. Is she, or is she not deserving of police protection? EMT treatment? Hospital care? Between the rabid “wild frontier, each man for themselves, let the strongest survive” Libertarians and the compassion lacking, money worshiping, rabid Capitalists, your country is kind of screwed, in my opinion. Good Luck with that, glad I don’t live there. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/717 "2010-10-27T17:02:11Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Let me say that again, they CHOOSE to have a subscription service, 20 years ago. Massive nitpick: 20 years ago they **chose**. One o. Chose rhymes with hose; choose rhymes with shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/718 "2010-10-27T17:07:08Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I can’t decide if it’s sadder that this is so, or that someone would defend it. > > A crack whore chooses to take drugs, chooses to get into the car with a john, doesn’t pay health insurance. Is she, or is she not deserving of police protection? EMT treatment? Hospital care? > > Between the rabid “wild frontier, each man for themselves, let the strongest survive” Libertarians and the compassion lacking, money worshiping, rabid Capitalists, your country is kind of screwed, in my opinion. > > Good Luck with that, glad I don’t live there. JESUS FUCK YOU REALLY ARE A COMPLETE WASTE OF BRAIN MATTER. I’m not even going to say anything more than that, because it’s clear that (a) you’re not reading anything anyone else is saying or (b) you’re functionally illiterate or (c) you’re incapable of understanding anything remotely approaching logic. God damn, it’s times like this that I \*really fucking loathe \*people. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/719 "2010-10-27T17:07:26Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > So do police get to with hold protections from people they deem undeserving? Say a crack whore who gets beat up by a john? Do they get to say, “Hey, you took the risk, your own stupidity, you’re not contributing cash, no protection for you!” Do you think the crack whore and the neurosurgeon get the same treatment by the police? > [@](#): > > Or a doctor, does he get to choose who to administer care to based on their worthiness? You don’t pay taxes, no pain meds! This accident was caused by your own stupidity, take your broken leg on home! Same thing. Everyone gets patched, but better insurance gets better care. > [@](#): > > The measure of a compassionate society is not how it treats the ‘haves’, but the ‘have nots’. Basic services like EMT, police protection, access to healthcare should not be based on what you have (deep pockets) or your character (worthiness). A nice sentiment that ignores human nature. ---
**Author:** ![StephanieLynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/46a35a/32.png) [@StephanieLynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StephanieLynn)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/720 "2010-10-27T17:26:38Z")
Lets remember that in choosing not to pay for the fire service, Crannick pretty much sent a big “F you” to all of his neighbors who may have ever needed it in the past. Do you think the fire dept that services the area is kept afloat on people’s good intentions? Do you think the firemen say “Well, don’t worry about paying me, my family can starve out in the cold, but as long as I can do good for people, even when they haven’t paid, I’m okay”? Do you think the companies that make fire trucks give them out for free? All of these things cost money and in this case that money comes directly from the citizens of the area. By not paying his dues, Mr. Crannick (along with hundreds of others I’m sure) was ensuring that the fire dept. was underfunded and therefore could not respond as effectively to fires in his area. Like I said, a big “F you” to his neighbors. Now that he has a fire, even though his lack of contribution has contributed to the problem of the fire dept. being underfunded and unable to effectively respond to fires, he wants to reap the benefits of a system he did not pay into? If anyone is the evil monster here, it is Crannick for flat out refusing to provide modest funding for a service that saves lives and homes in his area, because he didn’t feel like it. I am not lacking in compassion, I am not a hardcore libertatrian. I value other people for more than their financial contributions to society. But the thing is, I value society more. I value a society where people do right by each other and work together to make sure everyone is taken care of. The enemy to that kind of society is not a heartless fire dept. that won’t help a person in need, it is people like Mr. Crannick himself who want to reap the benefits of living in society that helps a person when they are down, but refuses to do what’s required of him to help others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=37)