# WTF? Pay Up or We Let Your House Burn Down? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210 "2010-10-06T03:08:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/721 "2010-10-27T18:28:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you think the crack whore and the neurosurgeon get the same treatment by the police? Are you saying they don’t? Because where I live the cops would take exception to that remark. She still gets police protection is the point, it’s provided to everyone, regardless of their ‘worthiness’. > [@](#): > > Same thing. Everyone gets patched, but better insurance gets better care. Again, if y’all are happy with a society which provides services based on the depth of your pockets, and clearly you are, have at it. But please, let’s stop pretending it’s a compassionate society, okay? Drop the pretense and own it already. It’s always going to come down to money. > [@](#): > > A nice sentiment that ignores human nature. In my country it’s more than a sentiment. It’s how we roll. Everyone gets equal access to healthcare, fire services, police protection, EMT service etc. Of course it keeps us from being able to feel all superior to the poor saps who don’t have what we do, but that’s a trade off we’re willing to make. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/722 "2010-10-27T19:19:09Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Are you saying they don’t? Because where I live the cops would take exception to that remark. She still gets police protection is the point, it’s provided to everyone, regardless of their ‘worthiness’. Wow, you really are that obtuse. There was no distinction made regarding Cranick’s worthiness. It didn’t pay for a service, so he didn’t get a service. End of story. > [@elbows](#): > > a sentiment. It’s how we roll. Everyone gets equal access to healthcare, fire services, police protection, EMT service etc. Of course it keeps us from being able to feel all superior to the poor saps who don’t have what we do, but that’s a trade off we’re willing to make. Well, enjoy it up there on your high horse. Maybe use it to ride to a different thread that talks about taxed based services. The rest of us are talking about something entirely different–a voluntary subscription service. You’re welcome to participate, but maybe try talking about the same thing as the rest of us. If do you chOOse to participate, start by realizing that this community chOOse to have a voluntary subscription service instead of a mandatory taxation. The also chOOse to contract with a nearby municipality instead of establishing their own fire department. And lastly, Cranick chOOse not to participate. Worthiness didn’t factor in. Cranick opted out, and as a result he didn’t have access to a fire department when he needed it. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/723 "2010-10-27T19:29:46Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > In my country it’s more than a sentiment. It’s how we roll. Everyone gets equal access to healthcare, fire services, police protection, EMT service etc. Of course it keeps us from being able to feel all superior to the poor saps who don’t have what we do, but that’s a trade off we’re willing to make. In my country, if a bunch of bootstrappy individuals decide that they don’t want Big City Government Fat Cats stealing their hard earned money to pay for universal fire coverage, they have the right to take their chances. They also have the right to save even more of their hard earned money by burning their garbage on their tinder dry property. However, if these are the choices you make, and you also fail to arrange for a local town’s FD to provide you with personal coverage, I’m not going to weep at your eventual misfortune. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/724 "2010-10-27T19:49:05Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Are you saying they don’t? Because where I live the cops would take exception to that remark. She still gets police protection is the point, it’s provided to everyone, regardless of their ‘worthiness’. That is not what I am saying. I’m saying they don’t get the same level of service from the police department. Simply put, the same level of resources will not be spent on the crack whore if her apartment gets ripped off as would be spent on well-to-do socialite. I am not impugning any individual officer, either. > [@](#): > > Again, if y’all are happy with a society which provides services based on the depth of your pockets, and clearly you are, have at it. But please, let’s stop pretending it’s a compassionate society, okay? Drop the pretense and own it already. It’s always going to come down to money. Money talks. Not much change in the ~10,000 years\* or so of civilization. It’s human nature. > [@](#): > > In my country it’s more than a sentiment. It’s how we roll. Everyone gets equal access to healthcare, fire services, police protection, EMT service etc. Of course it keeps us from being able to feel all superior to the poor saps who don’t have what we do, but that’s a trade off we’re willing to make. Yep, sure. Keep on believing that. Kumbayah. Believe it or not, I know quite a number other Canadians (which I seem to remember you being, but may be wrong) who, just as strongly you believe is true, believe your statements to be untrue. \*I am not a historian, so the number may be more or less, also depending on how civilization is defined. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/725 "2010-10-27T20:02:41Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > In my country it’s more than a sentiment. It’s how we roll. Everyone gets equal access to healthcare, fire services, police protection, EMT service etc. Of course it keeps us from being able to feel all superior to the poor saps who don’t have what we do, but that’s a trade off we’re willing to make. In my country we say to let a woman drive a car is like to let a monkey fly a plane, very dangerous yes. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/726 "2010-10-27T20:12:58Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > … Again, if y’all are happy with a society which provides services based on the depth of your pockets, and clearly you are, have at it. But please, let’s stop pretending it’s a compassionate society, okay? Drop the pretense and own it already. It’s always going to come down to money. … I really don’t understand how you can not get that in this particular instance, in this thread, you can almost certainly count the number of people happy with it on one finger. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > JESUS FUCK YOU REALLY ARE A COMPLETE WASTE OF BRAIN MATTER. … On the bright side, at least [del]gonzomax[/del] fonznotax has someone to play with now. CMC fnord! I’ve got a thread, it’s got a couple of posters with no reading comprehension I’m not gonna read it to my friends ('cause friends don’t inflict brain damage on their friends) I’ve got a thread, it’s got a couple of posters with no reading comprehension I’m not gonna read it to my friends ('cause friends don’t inflict brain damage on their friends) Will it go round in circles Will it burn up like a kitty in a double wide Will it go round in circles Will it burn up like a puppy in a double wide ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/727 "2010-10-27T21:02:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by elbows > In my country it’s more than a sentiment. It’s how we roll. Everyone gets equal access to healthcare, fire services, police protection, EMT service etc. Of course it keeps us from being able to feel all superior to the poor saps who don’t have what we do, but that’s a trade off we’re willing to make. Your country does not offer everyone fire services dipshit. I already bitchslapped that argument down in post #446. Public Fire Safety Guidelines (PFSG): put out by The Ontario Office of the Fire Marshal available on the web. > [@](#): > > PFSG 04-01-12 Selecting Fire Suppression Capabilities > Consideration - No Fire Suppression Capability: > Why? > remote communities with limited population > minimal fire risk > not enough firefighters to deliver fire suppression > Consequences > if fire risk not addressed there is potential for community to be at risk > negligence of one resident can adversely impact on another > Alternatives > effective community fire safety programs > portable fire extinguishers and smoke alarms > community fire safety officer/team > [@](#): > > PFSG 04-08A-03 Optimizing Rural Emergency Response > Once response capabilities have been determined it is incumbent upon the municipality to ensure that fire department operations are conducted in accordance with the requirements of the Occupational Health and Safety Act and Ministry of Labour, Health and Safety Guidelines for the Ontario Fire Service. Policies, procedures and training should be in place to ensure that firefighters are operating safely and within their capacity at the fire scene. The level of protection services provided by the department, as deemed appropriate by Council, should be clearly defined and included in the fire department establishing and regulating by-law. Oh, and by your own logic your country should really be bankrupting itself to help our crack whores, and providing our poor with food and money. That’s how you feel it should work, right? ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/728 "2010-10-27T21:33:49Z")
[QUOTE=Shot From Guns] If a vapid twenty-three year old woman shows up at the ER and demands that someone give her a boob job so that she can land a rich husband, do you expect the doctors to “deliver care”? After all, it’s what they’re “sworn to do”! You moron. [/QUOTE] IF such a country comes into being, I am so moving there. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/729 "2010-10-27T22:10:09Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I can’t decide if it’s sadder that this is so, or that someone would defend it. > > A crack whore chooses to take drugs, chooses to get into the car with a john, doesn’t pay health insurance. Is she, or is she not deserving of police protection? EMT treatment? Hospital care? This proves your stupidity beyond any doubt whatsoever. **emacknight** specifically mentioned that emergency medical treatment is obligatory. It’s the optional stuff that, no surprise, is optional. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/730 "2010-10-27T22:53:05Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > This proves your stupidity beyond any doubt whatsoever. **emacknight** specifically mentioned that emergency medical treatment is obligatory. It’s the optional stuff that, no surprise, is optional. I really shouldn’t be given credit for that. It’s been said at least 3 or 4 hundred times already. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/731 "2010-10-28T02:15:31Z")
Heaven knows, I’m not needed here, so this will be my last post unless specifically addressed. **elbows** , evidently unfamiliar with either Canadian or American society or (and this part _is_ forgiveable) weird hypothetical variations of either in which citizens can opt in and out of citizenship on an apparently freely-sliding scale, should still know better than to conflate things purchased in common in advance with items whose price can be negotiated on an ad-hoc basis. **elbows** ’ assertion that equal access to public services on a par with which everyone _else_ in the developed world is accustomed _keeps_ him/her from feeling superior is, well, less sad than the horrendous diction and grammar in which s/he expresses it, especially when you consider that public education is also supposedly available “where he rolls.” **gonzomax** , on the other hand, is starting fires and puncturing buckets for the sake of the heat, not the light. I’ve had enough. Until they seek education, let them both burn. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/732 "2010-10-28T03:01:53Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > Is starting fires and puncturing buckets for the sake of the heat, not the light. I’ve had enough. Until they seek education, let them both burn. I’m steeling that. And some day I’ll usurp the thrown and reign over the Land of Soupy Goodness. ---
**Author:** ![StephanieLynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/46a35a/32.png) [@StephanieLynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StephanieLynn)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/733 "2010-10-28T03:08:38Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Taking pleasure in a guys home burning down and his animals dying is sick. Yep, he was not as solid a citizen as you flawless people. You can harshly judge him, throw the first and second stone. > Some of you kiddies think he has not suffered enough. Not paying 75 was an egregious crime. Home burned down , animals dead, all is well. But perhaps he should be fined. You all know he could afford it and even that he spent it in a bar. Isn’t this fun? Justice was served. And you kind hearted people got the results that make you all warm and fuzzy. > I still think it was terrible, i still think the home and animals should have been saved. If this was just a case of people with excessive wealth and the means to help sitting on their high horse and punishing someone who tried to cheat the system, I would be just as appalled as you. But this is not some misguided but harmless village idiot. We can all just sit around saying “Oh that Mr. Crannick, trying to be sly and get out of paying his dues, but he’s a loveable old curmudgeon.” but the fact is that by not paying into the system, these people not only DON’T HELP anyone then expect others help, they actually PUT EVERYONE IN HARMS WAY and still expect the system to help them. We condemn this man not because he is different, or unfortunate or because his pockets aren’t deep enough, but because his greed HAS A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON THE REST OF SOCIETY. But like I said, he’s a loveable old curmudgeon, we can’t just let him down. So are YOU going to pay his dues so that he has access to fire services? Oh, you are because it’s only $75? Are you going to pay for the group of people who will inevitably cancel their subscription knowing you will pick up their slack? Or are you just going to go and personally put out all of their fires when the fire dept. fails to show up? While your at it, go ahead and call my health insurance company and let them know that I’m switching the payment on my policy to your credit card. Oh and can I have your address, I think I’ll come to yours for dinner for awhile, as I don’t feel like paying to fill up my fridge this month. I mean, you wouldn’t let me starve right? By the way, I’m bringing friends, so make extra. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/734 "2010-10-28T04:20:10Z")
Read slowly and carefully, Cranick and his neighbor both offered to pay whatever it cost to save the home and animals. Who would have to pick up the slack, like 75 dollars off the total money collected would be slack? What slack? It would have cost a lot more than 75 to save the home. Hell they could have charged him 5000 bucks an equivilant to 67 people. Nobody would have been out a dime. Home saved, animals alive. Cranick claimed he forgot to pay and he had paid in the past. yet you are so sure he was just an evil guy trying to cheat the system. Posters who know nothing of him have called him many names and offered explanations of what happened without a scrap of knowledge. You suggest he was sly. Others suggest he spent it on a night on the town. Many think he was a cheat. So many people with intimate knowledge of a guy they never met. They are making crap up to to defend a position which makes them cold and uncaring. No its not them, it is Cranick. They are all honorable men. Yet his neighbor offered to pay whatever,it took. He knows him, but I am sure not as well on the people on the board, who know what is in his heart. No I would not let you starve if I could help you. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/735 "2010-10-28T06:31:10Z")
To be fair, we’ve called you a lot more names than we’ve called him, and we have more than enough justification for those. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/736 "2010-10-28T09:13:26Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Read slowly and carefully, Cranick and his neighbor both offered to pay whatever it cost to save the home and animals. Who would have to pick up the slack, like 75 dollars off the total money collected would be slack? What slack? Right back at you. Read slowly and carefully. Borrow a dictionary if you must. Cranick and his community had already made the decision regarding his abode. They previously decided that only those who (a) lived within five miles of a particular municipality and (b) enrolled into the fire protection plan in advance would receive the services of the fire department. > [@](#): > > It would have cost a lot more than 75 to save the home. Hell they could have charged him 5000 bucks an equivilant to 67 people. Nobody would have been out a dime. Home saved, animals alive. > Cranick claimed he forgot to pay and he had paid in the past. yet you are so sure he was just an evil guy trying to cheat the system. Posters who know nothing of him have called him many names and offered explanations of what happened without a scrap of knowledge. You suggest he was sly. Others suggest he spent it on a night on the town. Many think he was a cheat. So many people with intimate knowledge of a guy they never met. They are making crap up to to defend a position which makes them cold and uncaring. No its not them, it is Cranick. They are all honorable men. Yet his neighbor offered to pay whatever,it took. He knows him, but I am sure not as well on the people on the board, who know what is in his heart. The thing you’re missing is that the fire department is not a retail organization. You’re also missing the simple concept that a firefighter is a human being whereas the (purpotedly present) pets are not. > [@](#): > > No I would not let you starve if I could help you. Well, that’s a relief, I guess. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the situation that Cranick and his community created in their bid to lighten their own tax burden. By the way, care to discuss what the actual regulations are that govern the deployment of firefighters in a situation where the structure cannot be saved and there are no humans inside? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/737 "2010-10-28T13:05:04Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Read slowly and carefully, Cranick and his neighbor both offered to pay whatever it cost to save the home and animals. Why would anyone trust him? He said he’d pay the last time they put his fire out; he didn’t. The fire burned for hours and he just let his pets die. I can’t believe how much you stick up for this animal-torturing fuck, is he a kindred soul to you? ---
**Author:** ![pbbth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f9ae1b/32.png) [@pbbth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pbbth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/738 "2010-10-28T14:24:24Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Read slowly and carefully, Cranick and his neighbor both offered to pay whatever it cost to save the home and animals. Read slowly and carefully, Cranick made the exact same offer last time his house caught fire and then decided not to pay after they provided the service to him. He lied to them. He is the boy who cried wolf all grown up. Why should they have put out his fire this time when they know he is not going to pay? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/739 "2010-10-28T15:47:09Z")
But he offered to pay! That’s like money in their pocket right there! Hey **gonzo** , I’ll give you a million bucks if you say you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/740 "2010-10-28T16:20:51Z")
**Gonzomax** , this point has been raised at least a dozen times, and so far it seems you’ve refused to address it. You’ve made the point over and over that it’s terrible that the firemen didn’t rescue the pets. What do you feel about the fact that the OWNERS of those pets didn’t save them? It’s been established that it took significant time for the fire to spread from the shed to a corner of the house to fully engulfed – and yet the residents couldn’t be bothered to get their pets out??? Isn’t that at least an order of ‘more terrible’ than what the firefighters did? Because A) the owners presumably loved the animals and B) the owners are morally responsible for the care of their pets and C) the owners are the only ones who can know for sure that there really are pets and where in the house they’re confined. I _have_ experienced having a fire in the building I lived in. My first thought was to be sure all the people got out (an elderly mother-in-law in my case) but my second thought was saving the pets. I find it hard to believe that isn’t the mindset of any normal, feeling human being. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=38)