# WTF? Pay Up or We Let Your House Burn Down? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210 "2010-10-06T03:08:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/761 "2010-10-28T23:53:48Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Okay, so if the firefighters are morally bound to help, should the residents be morally bound to help fund the fire department? I didn’t say otherwise. When lives are at stake though, two wrongs do not make a right. I don’t think it is fair to ask firefighters to let people die if there is the chance to save them over the subscription fee. Now when Mom, Pop, and junior are saved and they want their goldfish bowl saved, tell them tomorrow’s dinner is bouillabaisse. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/762 "2010-10-29T00:05:25Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > In other words, **gonzomax** and others refuse to discuss the actual issue here: what regulations/laws/ordinances/etc. mandate firefighters put their own lives at risk to fight a fire in an unoccupied structure? AFAIK, none. I don’t think that is the issue. That’s pretty cut and dried. The issue is what obligation does an externally-contracted fire department have to attempt to save an empty, but in-use, dwelling for a delinquent payer? For the purpose of this question, let’s ignore this specific case and whether or not the dwelling could be saved, and let’s ignore the limitations on resources that this case may have had. I don’t believe there is an obligation to save the dwelling. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/763 "2010-10-29T00:20:07Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > In other words, **gonzomax** and others refuse to discuss the actual issue here: what regulations/laws/ordinances/etc. mandate firefighters put their own lives at risk to fight a fire in an unoccupied structure? AFAIK, none. It was a fucking double wide mobile home. it was not a dangerous fire to fight. they could have stood back and squirted water at it with no danger to themselves. I have never heard of a fireman dying in a mobile home fire. Christ you people are pulling shit out of your asses and presenting them as pearls. Oh wait, what if it were full on nitroglycerin. It could happen. ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/764 "2010-10-29T00:51:08Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > II have never heard of a fireman dying in a mobile home fire. [Now you have.](http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-attack/articles/455271-2-W-Va-firefighters-killed-fighting-mobile-home-fire/) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/765 "2010-10-29T00:59:14Z")
**St. Urho** : Thanks. [Here is the fixed link](http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-attack/articles/455271-2-W-Va-firefighters-killed-fighting-mobile-home-fire/). I seem to recall mentioning that my nephew is a firefighter. Well, he also happens to be a municipal firefighter in the South. Your link doesn’t surprise me. Some mobile homes are big. I remember visiting a friend in Georgia once and was surprised to find that his house was a mobile home. I discovered that when I went to the back yard. From the front yard and inside, it just looked like any other house in the area. [QUOTE=gonzomax] they could have stood back and squirted water at it with no danger to themselves. [/quote] And where are they supposed to get all this water from? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/766 "2010-10-29T01:25:02Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It was a fucking double wide mobile home. it was not a dangerous fire to fight. they could have stood back and squirted water at it with no danger to themselves. I have never heard of a fireman dying in a mobile home fire. Christ you people are pulling shit out of your asses and presenting them as pearls. > Oh wait, what if it were full on nitroglycerin. It could happen. Okay, if it wasn’t dangerous, why didn’t any of the Cranick’s bother getting the animals out? Instead of just standing there watching as the fire crept along, slowly, gradually, but eventually roasting the little fuckers. Well, that’s if they ever existed. Its not as if Cranick is known to lie. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/767 "2010-10-29T01:33:08Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > I didn’t say otherwise. When lives are at stake though, two wrongs do not make a right. I don’t think it is fair to ask firefighters to let people die if there is the chance to save them over the subscription fee. I’m going to ask again, slower. If you think the firefighters should save lives, why not also think the community should chip in to make sure the department is properly funded? You guys get it yet? I don’t mind if you take the stance that the fire fighters _should_ have done _something_. But if you are going to take that, you need to be either logically or morally consistent. If you can expect fire fighters to do something, anything, why can’t we expect the fucking lazy-ass residents to chip in a few bucks? That way, the next time one of the many moronic Cranicks gets his dick stuck in a dead cat, the fire department will be able to afford the diesel, and the truck, and the gear, and the personnel, to save his sorry ass. How do you not get that? It costs money to set up and maintain a fire department. They need that money BEFORE a fire, not after. Unless you know of some venture capitalists willing to front them a few million, in the unlikely event more than 50% of customers pay what they owe. 16 fucking pages and we’re still telling people to think beyond, “uh duh the fire fighters should have done something.” If there is any moral obligation, any at all, it falls of the broke ass community that’s trying to mooch of a neighbouring town. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/768 "2010-10-29T01:46:38Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I’m going to ask again, slower. > > If you think the firefighters should save lives, why not also think the community should chip in to make sure the department is properly funded? What the fuck. I’m not gonzo or elbows. Crannick made his bed and his grandson burnt it down, and the firefighters had no obligation to save the house. Aim that crap elsewhere. However, I don’t care if a NYC fire engine is driving back from the Rose Parade, if they come across a house on fire with lives in danger, you save the people. Oh, and I will say it again, slower… > [@](#): > > f you think the firefighters should save lives, why not also think the community should chip in to make sure the department is properly funded? I did **not** say otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/769 "2010-10-29T01:59:47Z")
Okay, I lied. I wasn’t specifically addressed. I ask forgiveness on the grounds that my ears are sensitive to certain exceptionally high frequencies of stupid typing. > [@gonzomax](#): > > It was a fucking double wide mobile home. it was not a dangerous fire to fight. First off, responding to _any_ structure fire (or, for that matter, a host of other events) is always dangerous simply because of the [risks inherent in emergency response](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4760/is_200705/ai_n32229930/), both to the responders and civilians. Second, you’re as [ignorant](http://www.fireengineering.com/index/articles/display/146077/articles/fire-engineering/volume-155/issue-5/features/the-dangers-of-mobile-home-fires.html) as can be and still hunt-and-peck on a keyboard: mobile home fires are exceptionally hazardous. Third, as you’ve already been shown, admitting [\*you’ve](http://www.register-herald.com/homepage/x519110332/Two-firefighters-die-in-blaze?keyword=leadpicturestory)\* “never heard of” something doesn’t exactly put it up on a shelf with the unicorns. > [@gonzomax](#): > > they could have stood back and squirted water at it with no danger to themselves. Yup. Wouldn’t have saved the trailer or the dogs, and would have depleted their tanks of water which might have come in handy if embers had ignited neighboring structures, but apparently that, and seventy-five bucks, could have made a single idiot happy. And isn’t that the point, you cruel Republicans? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/770 "2010-10-29T02:11:10Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > However, I don’t care if a NYC fire engine is driving back from the Rose Parade, if they come across a house on fire with lives in danger, you save the people. What people were in danger in the Cranick’s home? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/771 "2010-10-29T02:29:36Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > What people were in danger in the Cranick’s home? :smack: > [@d\_odds](#): > > Crannick made his bed and his grandson burnt it down, and the firefighters had no obligation to save the house. ETA: That was in the same post you quoted. Adding bolding for emphasis… > [@d\_odds](#): > > **if** they [firefighters] come across **a** house on fire with lives in danger, you save the people. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/772 "2010-10-29T02:55:54Z")
That has never been in dispute. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/773 "2010-10-29T03:00:54Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > What the fuck. I’m not gonzo or elbows. Crannick made his bed and his grandson burnt it down, and the firefighters had no obligation to save the house. Aim that crap elsewhere. > > However, I don’t care if a NYC fire engine is driving back from the Rose Parade, if they come across a house on fire with lives in danger, you save the people. > > Oh, and I will say it again, slower… > I did **not** say otherwise. Don’t blame me, blame our shitty English language that lacks a non-specific ‘you.’ And while you’re at it, blame the fire fighters for just standing around with their dick in their hands while you got flamed. See the way I did that? So let’s try this again: For those that feel the fire fighters have an obligation, be it to save lives, save buildings, or save animals. Should we also say then that the community with lives, buildings, and flammable animals, have an obligation as well? Perhaps to fund the fire department they expect to act. And for the record, this was not some random event on the way home from a parade, that the fire fighters stumbled on. Cranick choose to live in an area without a fire department. No one had an obligation to him, nor he to them. Now kindly unbunch your panties, this is the pit. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/774 "2010-10-29T03:02:42Z")
And because people love to play what if: What if 2 firefighters died trying to save Cranick’s house? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/775 "2010-10-29T03:16:51Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > And because people love to play what if: > > What if 2 firefighters died trying to save Cranick’s house? What is 11 died? I mean those mobile homes are really tough to put out. You have to climb ladders over 2 feet high. You can touch the top of it if you are a good jumper. You can sit back and squirt water on it until you get bored. Cranick and his neighbors stood by and watched it burn. but first he tried to put it put with a garden hose. Can you imagine that, he thought he could put it out with a garden hose. But you think a trained fireman with real equipment would be killed. More pearls. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/776 "2010-10-29T03:32:33Z")
I just read that Karns VFD ,about 5 hours south of Cranicks town is going to start a subscription fire service. They say that if an uncovered house gets on fire they will put it out and charge the home owner a substantial fee. I guess some people can think , care and do the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/777 "2010-10-29T03:38:50Z")
And other people can read and comprehend. By _other people_, I mean _people other than gonzomax_. Seriously, **gonzo** ; what the heck happened to your reading and comprehension skills? You weren’t like this not so long ago. By the way, what do you think is involved in a mobile home fire? Do you actually think it’s just a little bit bigger version of a campfire? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/778 "2010-10-29T03:39:07Z")
[News - FirefighterNation: Fire Rescue - Firefighting News and Community](http://www.firefighternation.com/forum/topics/iaff-condemns-tennessee-house) IAFF an association of 300, 000 fire fighters is lashing out at the Obion firemen who stood and watched the home burn. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/779 "2010-10-29T03:43:42Z")
Your link actually shows condemnation of the city, of the city’s policy which was binding on the firefighters involved: > [@](#): > > The Association’s general president released a statement Tuesday on the city’s policy of subscription fire service. > The IAFF statement reads, in part, “We condemn South Fulton’s ill-advised, unsafe policy. Professional, career fire fighters shouldn’t be forced to check a list before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up. They get in their trucks and go.” > > The statement also reads, “Because of South Fulton’s pay-to-play policy, fire fighters were ordered to stand and watch a family lose its home.” Actually, their ire is misdirected. It should be (repetition Number 5001, perhaps?) directed at the county residents who voted for this inane (repetition Number 5002) and ridiculous (5003?) policy. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/780 "2010-10-29T04:07:05Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [Firefighter Nation: Fire Rescue - Firefighting News and Community](http://www.firefighternation.com/forum/topics/iaff-condemns-tennessee-house) IAFF an association of 300, 000 fire fighters is lashing out at the Obion firemen who stood and watched the home burn. Sigh. **SOUTH. FULTON.** Firemen. **NOT** Obion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=40)