# WTF? Pay Up or We Let Your House Burn Down? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210 "2010-10-06T03:08:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/861 "2010-11-02T21:31:51Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > I agree he should have paid the fee. I agree the system is a damnably stupid one with very little benefit and a large risk. Sometimes you act because it is the right thing to do. These firemen failed to act in spite of their ‘rules’ Cranick lost his trailer and the FD lost face. It’s on the order of ‘fuck you, pay me’. That’s not how any firefighter worth his salt should act. Thanks for the agreement, as far as it goes. As for the rest-- you seem to believe that some sort of code of honor, or professional responsibility, are the final governing factors to which fire fighters are answerable. This is not so. The firemen acted within the rules of the jurisdiction for which they operate. And those rules are set, in part, by requirements of the actual final arbiters of right and wrong in this situation, the insurance companies that cover the city of South Fulton. Imagine the result if the fire brigade did in fact fight a non-subscriber’s fire, and anything went wrong. What if a bystander, or the homeowner, or even a fire fighter was hurt or killed? Or what if there was property damage to another building, a vehicle, or even to distant structures or rolling stock because the fire “got away”? The loss or injury might be due to fire itself, or to a moving vehicle, or any other circumstance imaginable. And at that point the insurance carrier could – even should, from the point of view of its stockholders – refuse any coverage. A fire fighter’s widow might be denied even death benefits, and the city could be held liable for any and all losses. This too is one of the perfectly understandable results of this stupid system. The fire brigade is under the command of the city’s leadership structure, and those leaders are bound by their duty to the citizens. They are _not_ bound by a duty to someone who opted out of the system in place. Just as a general in a war is under the command of the civilian authority, quite properly the fire fighters themselves have no voice in the matter. So again, it’s a stupid system. Cranick was aware of the stupid system, and tried to game it. The stupid system produced exactly the result that one would expect from a stupid system, that being a stupid result. Cranick got screwed. But the entirety of the blame goes to the stupid (short sighted or whatever the excuse) citizens of the unincorporated county _ **including and especially Cranick** _, for agreeing to a stupid subscription system. A stupid subscription system that _allows people like Cranick to opt out!_ Even if they felt their unincorporated community couldn’t support a fire brigade of its own, given the start-up cost of acquiring fire trucks and all, they still could have taxed themselves (the residents) the equivalent of $75 each and _paid that to South Fulton_ for fire protection and avoided the whole “opt” stupidity. Let us give over the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Cranick is responsible for his own fate. And the fire fighters did absolutely nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/862 "2010-11-02T21:39:56Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Answer. If they put his home out and saved the dogs, but charged him 5K to do it. All the people around would think, I don’t want to pay that much money, when I could pay 75 bucks. Incentive. Saving the home and dogs while charging 5 K, would absolutely not result in the members of the community not paying. You guys can stop that wrong argument anytime now. Nope, this argument was stupid the first time you trotted it out, and it has not increased it’s IQ with age. What everyone would do in that instance would be “to hell with paying the $75/year. I’ll just promise to pay the costs of firefighting if I ever have a fire. \*\*Then, like 50% of those in the neighboring community, I will NOT PAY AFTER THEY PUT THE FIRE OUT!! HAHAHAHAHA” \*\* ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/863 "2010-11-02T21:46:12Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Answer. If they put his home out and saved the dogs, but charged him 5K to do it. All the people around would think, I don’t want to pay that much money, when I could pay 75 bucks. Incentive. Saving the home and dogs while charging 5 K, would absolutely not result in the members of the community not paying. You guys can stop that wrong argument anytime now. Oh, I had never thought of it like that before. Why has it taken you this long to mention this? I guess the mistake I kept making was assuming that if less than 50% of people will pay the after-fire fee of $500, then collection on $5000 would be even harder. It makes perfect sense to conclude that 100% of people would pay the $5000, knowing that less than 50% pay the $500. I was also assuming that someone who chooses not to pay $75 to protect a $50,000 structure probably doesn’t have $5000 to pay the fire department. I was also assuming that after a fire, there is going to be damage, regardless of when the fire department gets there, and that damage costs money. I was also assuming that Cranick’s insurance has a deductible, and given his propensity to cheap out on yearly fees, I also assumed he’d choose a high deductible plan. With that assumption, Cranick is going to have to pay at least $1000 to his deductible AND THEN several thousand to repairs/fire damage/water damage, AND THEN pay the fire department $5000. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/864 "2010-11-02T21:53:33Z")
> [@ntucker](#): > > True dat. Anyone attempting to argue with him should really read [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=500114) as a warning. That was just too funny, and now this thread makes perfect sense. **Gonzomax** quite literally doesn’t understand how things work. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/865 "2010-11-02T22:35:17Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > That was just too funny, and now this thread makes perfect sense. **Gonzomax** quite literally doesn’t understand how things work. Liar! Math is actually a conspiracy by the big banks to keep the working man down. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/866 "2010-11-02T22:42:28Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Liar! Math is actually a conspiracy by the big banks to keep the working man down. That doesn’t make any sense. If I take a $100 loan, and refuse to pay it back, how is it that I still have a $100 loan? I refused to pay it, so the loan should be $0. It’s not like the banks are losing anything, because they have so much money from the people that promise to pay them back. ETA In light of the recent facts, I guess I should apologize. \*\*Gozomax \*\*isn’t a troll, just very, very stupid. Perhaps even well intentioned, but still actively stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/867 "2010-11-02T23:00:22Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Answer. If they put his home out and saved the dogs, but charged him 5K to do it. All the people around would think, I don’t want to pay that much money, when I could pay 75 bucks. Incentive. Saving the home and dogs while charging 5 K, would absolutely not result in the members of the community not paying. You guys can stop that wrong argument anytime now. If we’re talking motivation by negative incentives, you have to admit seeing a house burn down is going to motivate the neighbours a lot more than hearing about a bill for five thousand dollars. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/868 "2010-11-03T02:28:59Z")
**gonzomax** , back in post [#700](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13069833#post13069833) I offered you a truthful and non-stupid way to argue for what you apparently wanted. It wouldn’t have persuaded everyone, but it was better than anything you had and at least wouldn’t have alienated everybody. But you rejected it in favor of more of the same, and it’s clear why: my argument did not offer any opportunity to slander firefighters. Just saying, I know why you’re still hanging around. Shame on you. And by the way, even some of the other posters in this thread are giving you far too much leeway. Mr. Crannick’s trailer did not burn because he didn’t pay, it burned _because he set fire to it._ What’s more, there is still _no_ evidence, just opportunistic, sensational editorializing, that the South Fulton firefighters did not treat the fire _exactly_ the way a local, funded department would have, had one existed. Your moanings are worse than absurd. Trailer fires are often lost causes even with a close response, squirting water from outside will not save them, and no department’s cardex sends firemen into or even close to a burning trailer in order to save animals. In short, you’re not only losing the argument that payment _should_ make a difference, you’re losing the argument that even in this case it _did_. **pbbth** _may_ have it right that trust is extremely important to **gonzomax**. I’ll say this much, at least: trust is a critical resource to some, but only for the reason that without it, it’s much harder to lie. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/869 "2010-11-03T03:03:21Z")
> [@ntucker](#): > > True dat. Anyone attempting to argue with him should really read [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=500114) as a warning. In that thread I kept asking gonzo whether a plan on a treadmill would ever take off. He declined to answer. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/870 "2010-11-03T18:32:13Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > **gonzomax** , back in post [#700](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13069833#post13069833) I offered you a truthful and non-stupid way to argue for what you apparently wanted. It wouldn’t have persuaded everyone, but it was better than anything you had and at least wouldn’t have alienated everybody. But you rejected it in favor of more of the same, and it’s clear why: my argument did not offer any opportunity to slander firefighters. Just saying, I know why you’re still hanging around. Shame on you. > > And by the way, even some of the other posters in this thread are giving you far too much leeway. Mr. Crannick’s trailer did not burn because he didn’t pay, it burned _because he set fire to it._ What’s more, there is still _no_ evidence, just opportunistic, sensational editorializing, that the South Fulton firefighters did not treat the fire _exactly_ the way a local, funded department would have, had one existed. Your moanings are worse than absurd. Trailer fires are often lost causes even with a close response, squirting water from outside will not save them, and no department’s cardex sends firemen into or even close to a burning trailer in order to save animals. In short, you’re not only losing the argument that payment _should_ make a difference, you’re losing the argument that even in this case it _did_. > > **pbbth** _may_ have it right that trust is extremely important to **gonzomax**. I’ll say this much, at least: trust is a critical resource to some, but only for the reason that without it, it’s much harder to lie. His grandson set a fire in a barrel not far from his house and attempted to handle it himself. Cranick did not start the fire. But when firemen respond to a fire, is it relevant who started it? They just put them out. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/871 "2010-11-03T18:33:27Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They just put them out. Theoretically they also get paid to do so. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/872 "2010-11-03T18:39:49Z")
Is Cranick enough? Should we find out who else did not pay the 75 bucks and burn their homes down? We enjoy people learning a lesson like that. I am sure you guys could slam the character and tell lots of inside things about what kind of people they are. But we can all agree, there homes should burn down to show others, how bad it is to not pay. That would be the perversion of justice that you guys enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/873 "2010-11-03T18:44:00Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Is Cranick enough? Should we find out who else did not pay the 75 bucks and burn their homes down? Pfft, hell no. You’d have to pay me to burn someone’s house down. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/874 "2010-11-03T18:44:07Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Is Cranick enough? Should we find out who else did not pay the 75 bucks and burn their homes down? YES! I’m glad you finally understand our point. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/875 "2010-11-03T19:28:54Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Is Cranick enough? Should we find out who else did not pay the 75 bucks and burn their homes down? We enjoy people learning a lesson like that. I am sure you guys could slam the character and tell lots of inside things about what kind of people they are. But we can all agree, there homes should burn down to show others, how bad it is to not pay. That would be the perversion of justice that you guys enjoy. So do you finally realize that there are other residents that have not paid the $75? Knowing this, should the fire department respond when they call? Seriously, now that we’ve made an example out of Cranick, what excuse is there for people to not pay? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/876 "2010-11-03T20:51:28Z")
**gonzomax** : More than any other post you’ve made in this thread, your last one show incredibly well how stupid you’re being here. The fire department did not burn the man’s house down. The fire department did not set the place on fire. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/877 "2010-11-03T21:02:34Z")
[Just to recapitulate the story:](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/) Not only did this guy not pay his fire service fee, he also underinsured his property. Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/878 "2010-11-04T02:40:54Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > [Just to recapitulate the story:](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/) > > Not only did this guy not pay his fire service fee, he also underinsured his property. > > Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son. Insurance company says they will pay 100 percent. They are able to recognize the bad press possible by screwing over a guy who had a terrible tragedy befall him. I guess they can not find enjoyment in anothers suffering. Can you understand what suckers they must be? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/879 "2010-11-04T02:50:40Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Insurance company says they will pay 100 percent. They are able to recognize the bad press possible by screwing over a guy who had a terrible tragedy befall him. I guess they can not find enjoyment in anothers suffering. Can you understand what suckers they must be? He paid his insurance policy, so his provide will pay as part of the contract. If he didn’t pay his policy, should they feel bad and give him money anyways? “Insurance is going to pay for what money I had on the policy, looks like. But like everything else, I didn’t have enough.” He was under insured, sounds like those heartless bastards are going to give him free money. Maybe if he promises extra hard. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/880 "2010-11-04T03:08:50Z")
If he had “forgotten” to pay his insurance premiums, then the insurance company should pay him out anyway. Otherwise, it will be exactly like the insurance company burned his house down. Should we all go around burning down underinsured people’s houses? You’d like that wouldn’t you? What if we all suffered a terrible tragedy and burned down our fire department’s insurance companies? What then huh? And what about the pets? The pets belonging to the insurance company executives that were set on fire by people, People JUST LIKE YOU PEOPLE HERE! GAAAHdhshdkjfds garble barble garble blah. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=45)