# WTF? Pay Up or We Let Your House Burn Down? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210 "2010-10-06T03:08:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/881 "2010-11-04T09:27:12Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Insurance company says they will pay 100 percent. They will pay 100% of the coverage he paid for. It’s amazing how this works, you pay for coverage, and you get covered in your time of need. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/882 "2010-11-04T14:10:17Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Insurance company says they will pay 100 percent. Do you have a cite for this? The article above indicates that he will only be able to recover the listed amount on the policy, which, again from the article, won’t be enough to replace everything. Has there been a subsequent article? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/883 "2010-11-04T14:15:38Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > They will pay 100% of the coverage he paid for. It’s amazing how this works, you pay for coverage, and you get covered in your time of need. But if I only pay for $10,000 worth of insurance for my $25,000 mobile home, then the insurance company should pay me $25,000, otherwise they hate me and my pets and its not fair and anyone who says otherwise hates little cute kitties and is an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/884 "2010-11-04T14:47:08Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > [Just to recapitulate the story:](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/) > > Not only did this guy not pay his fire service fee, he also underinsured his property. > > Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son. Hey, is it OK if I try to get along with just two out of three? Just sayin…. OMG!! I just watched the video, and am (if such is possible) only more convinced that Craven- er, Cranick – is both an idiot and a manipulative bastard milking this for all it’s worth. He whines that he thinks some of his tax money goes to the city that he doesn’t live in, either directly to fire protection or to the “general fund”. Apparently he believes that this entitles him to fire protection. Clearly he either doesn’t understand, or deliberately obfuscates, the difference between “incorporated city” that he doesn’t live in and “unincorporated county” where he actually resides. Then he further bitches about some prison that “they” built “over there” (without defining whoever “they” may be) with the implication that his fire protection was compromised because funds were directed to that facility instead of to him. Craven- sorry, I keep getting confused, Cranick doesn’t even repeat the “I forgot to pay the subscription” defense, instead going with the “Well they did it for my boy three years ago, and they did it for somebody else (mumble mumble into incoherency without naming anyone)” excuse. To me this is even worse because it clearly demonstrates that he was actively gaming the system for a measly 75 bucks. That’s pretty low. I have all along condemned the _system_ in place here. The only people embracing the “optional subscription” method of fire protection are those of Libertarian bent, and I am most assuredly not among them. I’m one of those pinko types who believes our social contract should include government operated comprehensive fire protection paid for by mandatory taxes. But **gonzo** , understand that this does not change the facts of the situation. The residents of the area chose an optional subscription system, providing that Libertarian wet dream of maximum individual freedom of choice. Craven displayed his own Libertarian bent by embracing both the system and the “choice” available to him, even to the extent of gaming the system in true Libertarian fashion. So, despite the fact that I had no _a priori_ desire to see Craven’s house burn down, and no desire at all to see other people suffer misfortune, I can still greatly enjoy the irony of Craven receiving a true Libertarian result, to wit, losing everything he owned. I point this out because friend **gonzo** seems determined to lump me and many others in with those praising this system and/or its results. I do not praise it, I condemn it. I abhor it. The whole Libertarian ideal displayed here is anathema to me. So is the idea of people losing their homes to fire. But it does make a wonderful demonstration of exactly what I decry. And it allows me, without any moral reservations whatsoever, to point and laugh knowing that Craven, that ultimate Libertarian free choicer, got the ultimate Libertarian result. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/885 "2010-11-13T14:06:40Z")
Is this a zombie thread? Ought I to start a new one? [Over here](http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local-beat/Pay-to-Protect-Sheriff-Cutting-Services-to-City-Over-Late-Payment-107315038.html?dr) is the story of the town of Lauderdale Lake, Florida. Instead of forming its own police department, they contracted with the local sheriff to provide additional policing. They also contracted with the county for additional fire protection. Let’s be clear the sheriff (and the county fire department) was being paid for additional coverage. They got ‘their own’ police station and a fire truck for their money. But now they own the county Six million dollars so the Sheriff is closing the police station and moving the deputies around. Lauderdale Lakes now gets the same protection as any other community that does not have a contract. Same idea as the OP. Does anyone object? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/886 "2010-11-13T14:20:23Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Is this a zombie thread? Ought I to start a new one? \ Same idea as the OP. Does anyone object? I certainly don’t own this thread. And I’m not a mod, either junior or senior. That said, I think the usual protocol would be to open your new thread. And if you wish, link to this one as a parallel instance. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/887 "2010-11-13T14:45:44Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > [Just to recapitulate the story:](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/) > > Not only did this guy not pay his fire service fee, he also underinsured his property. > > Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son. Fat, drunk and stupid would also be a good description of Keith Olberman’s pandering to the Cranicks, Gonzos, and idiots of the world. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/888 "2010-11-13T15:24:32Z")
We can let this one die. I think the example (of an entire town failing to pay) shows the idea in a less-emotional way than a single family failing to pay. Or I could be wrong. I do not want to pretend I am outraged by this. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/889 "2010-11-13T16:13:33Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Fat, drunk and stupid would also be a good description of Keith Olberman’s pandering to the Cranicks, Gonzos, and idiots of the world. :rolleyes: Never enough is it? His home and all his possessions and memories burned to the ground. Three dogs and a cat died. That is not enough, you have to pile on about how stupid he is. I suppose stupid people should just die quietly. You can somehow convince yourself you are taking the high road. That is amazing. Others say he is fat. Well fat and stupid has no right to live at all. He paid a high price. I get no pleasure from his suffering. But apparently I don’t understand the high minded enjoyment possible from a persons suffering. Pile on and call names. It fits so well with this thread. Ask your kids how they feel about it. Hopefully they can feel sympathy for a person whose home burned and his pets died. As they age, they like you ,will learn real pleasure can be achieved at tragedies like this. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/890 "2010-11-13T17:38:41Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Never enough is it? … Oh geeze, I give up. OK, **gonzo** , I believe stupid people should die noisily, not quietly, providing the maximum possible entertainment value for my depraved amusement. And it would be great if they can watch their beloved pets die before they scream out their last breath. Can we make that a requirement too? Now will you shut the fuck up about it? (Nobody anywhere has yet demonstrated that Cranick had any actual pets, by the way. Damn him for breaking the rules! Oh, and yeah, I almost forgot, Cranick didn’t die in the fire either. Or even come close to it, for that matter. So a big loss for us all around, I guess. How will I ever teach my kids to appreciate the finer things in life --er, death-- if the Cranicks of the world won’t cooperate? _Doesn’t anyone think of the children?!!?!_) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/891 "2010-11-13T19:53:47Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Is this a zombie thread? Ought I to start a new one? > > [Over here](http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local-beat/Pay-to-Protect-Sheriff-Cutting-Services-to-City-Over-Late-Payment-107315038.html?dr) is the story of the town of Lauderdale Lake, Florida. Instead of forming its own police department, they contracted with the local sheriff to provide additional policing. They also contracted with the county for additional fire protection. > > Let’s be clear the sheriff (and the county fire department) was being paid for additional coverage. They got ‘their own’ police station and a fire truck for their money. > > But now they own the county Six million dollars so the Sheriff is closing the police station and moving the deputies around. Lauderdale Lakes now gets the same protection as any other community that does not have a contract. > > Same idea as the OP. Does anyone object? Seems pretty much the same situation to me. People want public service but they don’t want to pay for it. Let’s look at the alternatives. 1. Don’t pay the police or fire department. I’m not seeing that as a viable option. Even if you find people who are willing to work for free, you’ll still need to pay for equipment and supplies. 2. Make payment voluntary. Whoever want to pay does. Those who don’t want to pay don’t have to. Everyone gets the same amount of service. The problem here is that a lot of people are going to decide they’d rather not pay. You’re not going to get enough money voluntarily to provide the kind of public service people want. 3. Make other people pay for it. This one breaks down into several possibilities. Do you just refuse to pay and let other people pick up the slack? Then you’re back to #2 category. Do you force other people to pay for the services you receive? Historically that’s worked, but you don’t see a lot of empires around now. Do you borrow the money you need and figure somebody in the future will have to pay back what you spent now? Well, now you’re talking national politics. 4. You get what you pay for. This seems like the only realistic long-term plan to me. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/892 "2010-11-13T20:46:24Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Fat, drunk and stupid would also be a good description of Keith Olberman’s pandering to the Cranicks, Gonzos, and idiots of the world. :rolleyes: > [@gonzomax](#): > > Never enough is it? His home and all his possessions and memories burned to the ground. Three dogs and a cat died. That is not enough, you have to pile on about how stupid he is. I suppose stupid people should just die quietly. You can somehow convince yourself you are taking the high road. That is amazing. Others say he is fat. Well fat and stupid has no right to live at all. He paid a high price. I get no pleasure from his suffering. But apparently I don’t understand the high minded enjoyment possible from a persons suffering. Pile on and call names. It fits so well with this thread. > Ask your kids how they feel about it. Hopefully they can feel sympathy for a person whose home burned and his pets died. As they age, they like you ,will learn real pleasure can be achieved at tragedies like this. Well I guess we can add a lack of reading comprehension to **Gonzos** issues. Read what I wrote again only carefully this time. Here let me help you > [@Rick](#): > > Fat, drunk and stupid would also be a good description of **Keith Olberman’s** pandering to the Cranicks, Gonzos, and idiots of the world. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/893 "2010-11-13T21:34:17Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Ask your kids how they feel about it. Hopefully they can feel sympathy for a person whose home burned and his pets died. As they age, they like you ,will learn real pleasure can be achieved at tragedies like this. Take a deep breath, dummy. I’ll lay it out for you: It sucks that the guy lost his house. I have sympathy for him and for his pets. That said, I am happy that this shitty situation, in which I feel bad for the person who lost his house, makes a very good argument that emergency services should not be funded this way. I am also happy whenever you, **gonzomax** , are given an opportunity to reveal what a dumb-ass you are. So it’s like a cloud with two silver linings. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/894 "2010-11-13T21:39:48Z")
Last! (That oughta kill a thread that’s too stupid to fall down and die on its own.} ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/895 "2010-11-13T21:40:11Z")
Why won’t this thread die? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/896 "2010-11-13T21:40:23Z")
> [@ntucker](#): > > Take a deep breath, dummy. Good advice, but I’m pretty sure **gonzo** is not smart enough to understand the concept of breathing. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/897 "2010-11-13T21:54:47Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Good advice, but I’m pretty sure **gonzo** is not smart enough to understand the concept of breathing. I left it alone for quite awhile. But you are not smart enough to figure that out. It is you cold hearted kiddies who keep coming back to the scene of your enjoyment. You should throw a house burning party for all the lovers of another humans misery. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/898 "2010-11-13T22:29:42Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I left it alone for quite awhile. But you are not smart enough to figure that out. It is you cold hearted kiddies who keep coming back to the scene of your enjoyment. You should throw a house burning party for all the lovers of another humans misery. Yes, yes, rant and rave and froth. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/899 "2010-11-13T22:54:40Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Why won’t this thread die? We could try setting it on fire but somebody would just put it out for us. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/900 "2010-11-13T23:26:00Z")
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