# WTF? Pay Up or We Let Your House Burn Down? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210 "2010-10-06T03:08:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/141 "2010-10-07T18:28:17Z")
Page 4, and nobody’s posted this yet? [Libertarian Reluctantly Calls Fire Department](http://www.theonion.com/articles/libertarian-reluctantly-calls-fire-department,4651/) ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/142 "2010-10-07T18:30:29Z")
Early poll results are showing \*near-identical results \*for liberals and conservatives by proportions (11:5 liberals and 4:2 conservatives for approve:disapprove of the firefighters’ decision.). So, while we’re currently looking at a small sample, I’m going to go out on a limb here anyway and say that,\*\*elfkin477 \*\*and **Rand Rover** are a couple of fucking morons. > [@control-z](#): > > If you can’t depend on the government for emergency services, protection, and basic infrastructure, then what are we paying all these taxes for? ITT, fucking retards spout off at the mouth while having zero clue what fucking happened. HE WASN’T PAYING TAXES FOR THIS SERVICE. HE AND OTHER PEOPLE IN HIS COUNTY VOTED AGAINST PAYING TAXES FOR THIS SERVICE. WHEN HE WAS OFFERED THE OPPORTUNITY TO PAY A FEE TO RECIEVE THIS SERVICE, HE DECLINED, AND THEN EXPECTED TO FREELOAD OFF EVERYONE ELSE. > [@](#): > > Ok I see it was a neighboring locality that is responding to the fire, but seriously, do these guys have no honor? Water in that area is a limited commodity for firefighting, because it has to be brought in on the trucks. Do you think it would be \*honorable \*to use the water to try to fight the fire at the house of someone who didn’t pay, and then not have it to save the house of someone who did? If so, you’re a retard. But I’m pretty sure we’ve already established that. Bonus points: Do you think that a firefighter has a responsibility to risk their life to save a nonliving object when the owner of that object has refused to pay for your services in any way, despite being given the opportunity to do so, and despite having received those services before even after not having paid? > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Hey guys, I’m just stumbling upon this thread and I totally haven’t read a single thing about it or been following along, but WTF?! Seriously, this is bullshit! Taxes! Morals and ethics! Arglebarglegargle! I see what you did there. > [@control-z](#): > > Bill him $75 after the fact if money is so important. Yeah, they can charge it to the unicorn farm down the road. Moron. What do you do for a living? Whatever it is, I want some of it right now. Goods, services, I don’t care. And I’m not going to pay you for it. What’s wrong? Aren’t you _honorable_? ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/143 "2010-10-07T18:38:59Z")
The way we do it here is: Well, you call 911 and the Firebrigade comes out, then they charge you for that service. If you don’t have insurance for that, than you pay the Firebrigade out of you own pocket. If it is a fals alarm, then you pay a call-out fee and might get procecuted - depending on how cute you look or who you know, we’re in Ireland after all. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/144 "2010-10-07T18:41:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by elbows > > (did not read the whole thread yet, sorry!) > > I gotta say, it’s about time. You had to know, that sooner or later, the ‘for profit model’ that has served so well for health care, would find it’s way into fire services! > > Your nation is devolving to third world status, where you have to grease someone’s palm for the police to investigate anything. Today fire services, tomorrow police services! Onward Capitalism! > > Predatory capitalism at it’s finest. This guys a fucking charter member with 4,000 posts EL, you admit you haven’t read the thread. You proceed to make a completely stupid statement regarding a “for profit model” that has absolutely nothing to do with this situation. You use that stupidity as a basis for insulting the US and capitalism in general. Guess what you fucking Canadian bitch, get off your ass drive to rural Canada and figure out how many of your own countryman don’t have fire service. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/145 "2010-10-07T18:41:37Z")
> [@Spiff](#): > > Page 4, and nobody’s posted this yet? > > [http://www.theonion.com/articles/libertarian-reluctantly-calls-fire-department,4651/](http://www.theonion.com/articles/libertarian-reluctantly-calls-fire-department,4651/) This made me laugh out loud… to funny ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/146 "2010-10-07T18:50:41Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by elbows > > > > (did not read the whole thread yet, sorry!) > > > > I gotta say, it’s about time. You had to know, that sooner or later, the ‘for profit model’ that has served so well for health care, would find it’s way into fire services! > > > > Your nation is devolving to third world status, where you have to grease someone’s palm for the police to investigate anything. Today fire services, tomorrow police services! Onward Capitalism! > > > > Predatory capitalism at it’s finest. > > This guys a fucking charter member with 4,000 posts > > EL, you admit you haven’t read the thread. You proceed to make a completely stupid statement regarding a “for profit model” that has absolutely nothing to do with this situation. You use that stupidity as a basis for insulting the US and capitalism in general. > > Guess what you fucking Canadian bitch, get off your ass drive to rural Canada and figure out how many of your own countryman don’t have fire service. None, in my province (Saskatchewan). You see, any places that aren’t a city are put into a Rural Municipality. My uncle farms, and pays taxes to the Rural Municipality of [place]. When one of his large farming sheds caught on fire, he called 911 and they dispatched firefighters to his farm. Now, the RMs and the cities work out how they want to divide services. Technically it was the firefighters of the RM of [other place] who came, but because we’re fucking socialists, the government had arranged for this to be the norm and coverage to be available to everyone under their normal taxes. The firefighters of the RM of [other place] are technically volunteer firefighters, if they would not have been able to handle the fire, the nearest city would have dispatched their department that had more resources. But because my uncle pays his taxes, it didn’t matter to him, because help would come no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/147 "2010-10-07T18:59:16Z")
What about every rural house in the Northwest Territories? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/148 "2010-10-07T19:14:12Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > People that think they should extend fire protection to everyone are fucking idiots. It is not feasible, this is a huge country and much of it is rural. I know a guy that has a cabin 30 miles into the woods, it has no fire protection, it shouldn’t have fire protection. > > Dipshits, they didn’t vote to get rid of fire protection, they never had it and didn’t want it. It’s harder to get loans to build a house in areas without fire protection. It costs more to get insurance in areas without fire protection. It was known to everyone what the risks were. > This piece of shit home owner should just move to city, because he obviously doesn’t get it. Huh? It was “feasible” for his neighbour, who paid his $75. This story raises several issues, but ‘too remote for fire service’ isn’t one of them. The firemen were standing right there. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/149 "2010-10-07T19:22:37Z")
Rural as in population density not distance. I’m not saying this is the case but; if one person lives in the middle of 50 square miles, and if as people are suggesting everyone has to have fire service. That one person would have to build the fire station next door to his house and then get the government to hire him to protect himself. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/150 "2010-10-07T19:23:21Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > Rural as in population density not distance. I’m not saying this is the case but; if one person lives in the middle of 50 square miles, and if as people are suggesting everyone has to have fire service. That one person would have to build the fire station next door to his house and then get the government to hire him to protect himself. That’s still talking about distance. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/151 "2010-10-07T19:26:20Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > Rural as in population density not distance. I’m not saying this is the case but; if one person lives in the middle of 50 square miles, and if as people are suggesting everyone has to have fire service. That one person would have to build the fire station next door to his house and then get the government to hire him to protect himself. That may be an important and valid issue, but it is not raised by this story. Fire service was, in point of fact, available in this particular case, had the man paid his $75. I don’t think anyone is arguing that coverage must be extended, no matter how remote. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/152 "2010-10-07T19:45:06Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > Rural as in population density not distance. I’m not saying this is the case but; if one person lives in the middle of 50 square miles, and if as people are suggesting everyone has to have fire service. That one person would have to build the fire station next door to his house and then get the government to hire him to protect himself. What you’re ranting about is 100% unrelated to this thread. This is about someone who \*could \*have had the services of a fire department, and \*would \*have had those services, but instead chose not to pay the obscenely low annual fee, and then was shocked when he didn’t get what he didn’t pay for. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/153 "2010-10-07T19:52:58Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > What you’re ranting about is 100% unrelated to this thread. This is about someone who \*could \*have had the services of a fire department, and \*would \*have had those services, but instead chose not to pay the obscenely low annual fee, and then was shocked when he didn’t get what he didn’t pay for. And my point all along is that system is obviously stupid and broken. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/154 "2010-10-07T19:54:30Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > > What you’re ranting about is 100% unrelated to this thread. This is about someone who \*could \*have had the services of a fire department, and \*would \*have had those services, but instead chose not to pay the obscenely low annual fee, and then was shocked when he didn’t get what he didn’t pay for. > > And my point all along is that system is obviously stupid and broken. Which is also unrelated to the fact that the system, for good or ill, was the one they had at the time of the emergency. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/155 "2010-10-07T19:59:09Z")
Yes but effective fire service is fast. People are spouting off about why these people didn’t vote to raise taxes for fire coverage. At some point the response time is so great that it doesn’t matter. A municipality has fire stations that are spread around the whole area and provide quick response times. They extended the option of coverage to areas immediately outside the municipality, effectively saying, we will be a little slower, but if you pay for the service we will get there. But what about the guy that is 20 miles further down the road, and 20 miles after that, at some point the decision is made it doesn’t matter, so why pay. Maybe when they voted, all the people 10 minutes away from the municipality voted yes, and all the people an hour and a half away voted no, so they extended an option of coverage to those who wanted it. Makes perfect sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/156 "2010-10-07T20:09:57Z")
Come on Quimby how would you “fix” this broken system? Would you make a guy an hour and half from the nearest fire station pay for a service that was useless to him? Would you build a new fire station in an area without enough population density to support it? How would you fix it? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/157 "2010-10-07T21:04:01Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The homeowner who did not pay the $75 is an idiot. > > The taxpayers who voted down a small tax increase in order to extend fire protection to all are idiots > > The system that even allows voters to turn down a small tax increase for fire protection is idiotic. > > A mature society realizes that people in general are poor at assessing risk. It is to the benefit of the entire society if fire protection is extended to all, and that all are required to pay for it. It’s a necessary function of government. Without these basic functions of government, we are reduced a bunch of scrabbling individuals with much fewer comforts and services. Civilization as we know it consists of groups of people coming together and specializing so that we don’t have to do everything ourselves. > > The US suffers from the idealized (and inaccurate) vision of the “rugged individualist” who does everything themselves, and does not need any interference for the damn gubmmint. > > Libertarians will no doubt vociferously disagree, and will have all sorts of theoretical claptrap about why real life situations should be totally different from our observations. > > The bottom line in this case, is that if essentials like fire protection are left up to individuals, then some of these individuals will make poor decisions based on a poor grasp of risk assessment. The net result is a bunch of burned down buildings, and increased risk to others, which leads to a poorer society for everyone. I don’t think the general economy is helped every time a house burns down. See [Broken Window Fallacy)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window) If you’re willing, I have another way of looking at what you just said: To start with, the voters weren’t stupid. They essentially had a choice between a tax funded system, or an individual payer system–both of which would have resulted in the same $75 being collected and going to pay for a service. Which is one of the funnier things I find about UHC debates, a plurality of Americans see paying $75 to the government as different from paying $75 directly for a service. In the end, it seems people really like choice, which is even funnier because THESE residents didn’t really get a choice, there was only one fire service available (cough Comcast cough). And there isn’t anything inherently wrong with that, even if it means people make bad choices. So you said, “A mature society realizes that people in general are poor at assessing risk.” And that is absolutely true. The problem is then that means so is government. After all, what makes them any better? The other side of this coin is that a lot of people fall for “insurance scams” like with car rentals. I remember a movie store used to offer “insurance” every time you rented for $1. I was offered a $7 per month insurance plan for my phone. Radio Shack offers “insurance” for batteries! As a result, who is to say that the government would have produced a better result? Chances are, to be “good at risk assessment” often translates into “playing it safe” which then translates into OVER protecting. There is a tendency towards assuming that some how the government can save us. But to see the folly in that is only a matter at looking to all the burned out houses in PROTECTED areas. My conclusion is really just that the system played out exactly the way it was meant to, and isn’t inherently broke. It’s not the system I would prefer, but it does actually work (siting his neighbour’s house as proof). The only difference in his area is that instead of paying the county $75 he pays someone else. He simply decided not to because he didn’t want fire services, and more than I want an extended warranty on my phone. The real issue is that Cranick didn’t care enough about his house to make it worth saving. So what if it burns to the ground? We as a society really don’t care that much about anything else he owns, why care so much about his house? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/158 "2010-10-07T21:07:50Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So you said, “A mature society realizes that people in general are poor at assessing risk.” And that is absolutely true. The problem is then that means so is government. After all, what makes them any better? They have reliable access to actuaries. **Nurrrrr.** ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/159 "2010-10-07T21:17:31Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@emacknight](#): > > > > So you said, “A mature society realizes that people in general are poor at assessing risk.” And that is absolutely true. The problem is then that means so is government. After all, what makes them any better? > > They have reliable access to actuaries. > > **Nurrrrr.** I’d actually love to see how this scenario would play out to an actuary. What is the probability of having a house fire? What is the probability the fire will be too big to contain? What is the cost of a house fire? What is the incremental cost difference to home owner’s insurance? How much garbage does he burn? As far as risk assessment goes, his insurance provider is probably the most idiotic out of all the players in this retarded little opera, and wouldn’t we assume they have access to the _best_ actuaries? I’m not sure what I hadn’t thought of this before, but his insurance provider has already crunch all of these numbers. The probability of the fire, the cost of the house, distance to fire station, and a hundred other factors. But they’re the ones that lost out in all this, while Cranick wins. I can guarantee\* you Cranick hasn’t paid more into his policy than his house is worth. As an example, I have a $300k policy that costs me $800 a year–I’ve got 370 years before I lose out on the deal. \*I can’t really guarantee anything ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210/160 "2010-10-07T21:20:16Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > To start with, the voters weren’t stupid. They essentially had a choice between a tax funded system, or an individual payer system–both of which would have resulted in the same $75 being collected and going to pay for a service. Do you have a cite for this? I’ve seen several news stories refer to a proposed $0.13 increase to property taxes (whether this is a flat increase, or on a per $1,000 of assessed value basis I have no idea), and someone on another forum even linked to the document the department prepared for the county government showing their options. But I haven’t seen a cite yet to indicate that this was a decision made by the county’s citizens voting, rather than an arbitrary choice made by elected officials. $0.13 is a far cry from $75; even if the increase was to be $0.13 per $1,000 of assessed value, you’d need to be living in a $500,000 home for that to equate to the $75 fee. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wtf-pay-up-or-we-let-your-house-burn-down/556210.md?page=9)