# Wus-ter . . . or WOR-CESTER??!!!??? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 2, 1999, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199 "1999-12-02T22:29:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pluto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f08c70/32.png) [@pluto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pluto)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/21 "1999-12-03T16:16:00Z")
> [@](#): > > It is pronounced just as it [is] written, th as in there ## The historic pronunciation of _th_ was often a hard _t_. The River Thames is one holdout, so is the name Thomas. The British still pronounce Gotham as “gottem”, Batman notwithstanding, and the nicknames Tony and Kate for Anthony and Catherine are other vestiges of the earlier pronunciation. English has always had a rather slipshod connection between spelling and pronunciation – it’s generally not safe to make _ex cathedra_ statements like the one quoted above. “If ignorance were corn flakes, you’d be General Mills.” Cecil Adams _The Straight Dope_ ---
**Author:** ![smilingjaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@smilingjaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingjaws)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/22 "1999-12-03T16:25:00Z")
What about Los Angeles? On old movies they pronounce it An-guh-les–why? ---
**Author:** ![drollman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f04885/32.png) [@drollman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drollman)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/23 "1999-12-03T16:58:00Z")
So I guess I’m the only one in the world who pronounces it Wor-Sheter-Shire Sauce. I could be stupid, I could be unique…your call… * * * With God as my witness, I thought turkey’s could fly. ---
**Author:** ![Lucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/24 "1999-12-03T17:13:00Z")
Drollman; I used to say wor-shester-shire too. Until I went to London. There was a stop on my subway (tube) line called Liecester. After a few days, I learned that this is pronounced Lester. Thereafter, it seemed to me that Worster might be the right way to pronounce the sauce and, as it was certainly simpler, I stuck with it. * * * “I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal ---
**Author:** ![torq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@torq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torq)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/25 "1999-12-04T06:11:00Z")
There are lots of place names in MA derived from English place names that are not pronounced the way a casual observer from another part of the country would imagine. “Wusster” is one of them. Also, “Leominister” is not “leo minister”, but “leminster”, “Peabody” is not “pea body” but “peebadee”, “Billerica” is not “bill AIR ika” but “bill RICK a”, “Reading” is “Redding”, and “Quincy” is pronounced more like “quinzee” than “quin see”. ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/26 "1999-12-04T06:15:00Z")
Lucky, just to clarify, that’d be L\ei\cester. ---
**Author:** ![putrid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@putrid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/putrid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/27 "1999-12-04T06:47:00Z")
Although I blanch at the OP making fun of quaint British English, I can happily join in jumping on the French. Illinois and Arkansas are more French than Indian, from my way of looking at it. Obviously [I \*hope\* obviously] the spellings are entirely French. Buy not only that. The French explorers and settlers bastardized the native languages just as much as the English did. French names and the Indian names they were based on are related but sort of loosely. That’s why there are forty different ways to spell Mackinac. They of course are not all pronounced the same either. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/28 "1999-12-03T20:08:00Z")
## English is _full_ of words that aren’t pronounced the way they sound. Why do we pronounce “tough,” “trough,” “though,” “through,” and “thorough” the way we do? Pronunciation “drifts” over time, and place-names is only one example of that. Out here, the capital of South Dakota is pronouced “Peer,” not “Pierre,” “Coeur d’Alene” is “Core-duh-lane,” “Pen d’Orielle” is “Ponderay,” and “Meagher” County is “Marr.” The British hardly have a monopoly on this. Jodi _Fiat Justitia_ ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/29 "1999-12-03T20:11:00Z")
By the way, for anyone who is interested in this sort of thing, I would highly recommend Bill Bryson’s books _Mother Tongue_ and _Made In America_, which very engagingly trace the development of English idioms and pronunciation, including place-names. * * * Jodi _Fiat Justitia_ ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/30 "1999-12-03T20:11:00Z")
By the way, for anyone who is interested in this sort of thing, I would highly recommend Bill Bryson’s books _Mother Tongue_ and _Made In America_, which very engagingly trace the development of English idioms and pronunciation, including place-names. * * * Jodi _Fiat Justitia_ ---
**Author:** ![Occam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Occam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Occam)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/31 "1999-12-03T21:21:00Z")
Rhythmdvl “Growing up around New London, Connecticut, we had a wonderful river called the Thames. It is pronounced just as it written, th as in there, the rest as in James. Easy enough for a second grader to do a report on. No Temms for us, thank you.” Oh Oh \<_raises hand_\> I know this one! Alrighty, so, the English arn’t stupid, they know how the word is spelled and until around the mid 1700’s they pronounced it “Thay-mz” also. So, along comes this upstart German king (George I) and the sucker can’t pronounce the ‘Th’ sound, the King’s English says it’s now “Temmes”. But, the river in New England was already named and the people went on pronouncing it the way they always had. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/32 "1999-12-03T21:55:00Z")
::passes out a gold star to **Occam** :: Cool bit of history there… glad you acknowledged that I wasn’t trying to call the Brits stupid or anything (any society that gave rise to the genius of Monty Python _and_ Benny Hill is nothing to laugh at!) ## On the subject of pronunciations – how did they know how things were pronounced before sound recording? Sure, the anecdote you tell would probably have had some contemporary documentation, but how do we know how most words are pronounced. Any text would be self-referential, no? I know there is no great mystery here, just my ignorance. Anyone have a clue? Once in a while you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right… ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/33 "1999-12-03T21:58:00Z")
RHYTHM – We can often determine pronunciation by looking at how things were spelled (in the era before standardized spelling) and at what words were apparently supposed to rhyme with one another. Read the Bill Bryson books – they’re both fascinating and very amusing. * * * Jodi _Fiat Justitia_ ---
**Author:** ![Ennius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Ennius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ennius)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/34 "1999-12-03T21:58:00Z")
“Worcester” is the Brits’ attempt to be Irish??? Give me a break. Worcester was an ancient Celtic settlement in Britain, and it existed for many years before the Romans invaded. Thus it is not a case of the Brits trying to be Irish, but rather an example of the tongue of the original nhabitants of that dreary island. And keeping that dreariness in mind, it is only fitting for this goshdarned gray, boring city that I call home to be named after a place in England. How do I know that Worcester was around before the Roman invasion? Simple. I go to school at Worcester Academy, a prep school in Worcester, and our school newspaper is called “The Vigornia.” “Vigornia” is nothing more than the Latinization of the Celtic “Worcester.” By the way, many natives pronounce the name “Wistah.” For God’s sake. Our language is dying. ---
**Author:** ![heretic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/46a35a/32.png) [@heretic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heretic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/35 "1999-12-03T22:17:00Z")
The -cester ending is Latinate. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/36 "1999-12-03T22:27:00Z")
Certainly you’ve heard about the two rival English newspapers who got into a price war so severe they started paying people to take their papers? It was the Bicester Times, it was the Worcester Times. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/37 "1999-12-04T01:42:00Z")
Sofa King: mowcester musing… torq: that wd be “lemster”, in fact Within living memory, Cirencester was pronounced “sister”, but I think that was too much even for us “-chester”, “-cester” and “-caster” endings represent different Anglo-Saxon dialects; there are also some oddities like Exeter, Uttoxeter and Wroxeter You will doubtless be fascinated to learn that Durnovaria, from where I took my name, = the “Dor” in Dorchester (Dorset, not Oxon) ---
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/38 "1999-12-04T04:17:00Z")
For the OP, one of my former professors had the last name “Worcester”. She always pronounced it as “woos-ter”. Uhh Techchick, those city names should be said as: -Buena Vista - Bwe-nah Vees-tah - Pueblo - Pweb-lo ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/39 "1999-12-04T06:03:00Z")
… on the other hand, the “Maryland” in London is actually pronounced the way it’s spelled, unlike the United State of the same name. ---
**Author:** ![KCB615](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ea666f/32.png) [@KCB615](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KCB615)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 1999, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199/40 "1999-12-05T05:03:00Z")
It’s Wuh - ster. ## Or, if you’re from the Fall River area (like myself), its Wuh - stuh. We drop our "r"s from words left and right. Thus Fall River is Fall Rivuh. And its not Bah-ston, its Baw-sten. While on the subject of Worcester, MA, keep in your prayers the families of the 6 firefighters who were killed at a fire last night in that fair city. It pains me greatly to see just one firefighter killed, let alone six at a time. Jeremy… Anyone who says they don’t like children obviously isn’t cooking them properly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wus-ter-or-wor-cester/5199.md?page=3)