# WV black lawmaker gets email with KKK graphic and anti-abortion message...also sues. Is this right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845 "2022-02-21T00:09:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/81 "2022-03-03T17:11:37Z")
Sure thing. I have only seen it mentioned in the article Max linked: [https://wvrecord.com/stories/620249343-delegate-files-civil-suit-for-racist-hateful-threats-made-against-her](https://wvrecord.com/stories/620249343-delegate-files-civil-suit-for-racist-hateful-threats-made-against-her) Max, I’m not sure specifically what distinction you’re making, but the reasonableness standard there applies to the nature of the conduct; an objective measure of how outrageous it is. A reasonable person must believe conduct of that kind would cause substantial distress. It isn’t a subjective measure from the perspective of the specific (perhaps crazy) person doing the conduct. Say I know for sure that wearing a Pride shirt to a particular event is going to outrage particular people, and I do wear it. Subjectively, I, a reasonable person (in this hypothetical) think it certain that it will have that effect. But objectively, _a_ reasonable person would not think the conduct “wearing this shirt” is outrageous behavior. And the other way around, one could argue, in the case of “sending KKK imagery to an African American person.” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/82 "2022-03-03T17:13:14Z")
So, you _do_ entirely ignore context. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/83 "2022-03-03T17:37:10Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > In both cases, I would say not necessarily. Uh, wow Okay, i disagree, and i expect the courts and most jurors to also disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/84 "2022-03-03T17:40:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, you _do_ entirely ignore context. Your examples were light on context so I cannot make such a sweeping conclusion. The books could be open to that page because that is today’s lesson. The newspaper could be left in that state by coincidence, or it may be that a burning cross makes the front page. Without a pattern of harassment in the school/workplace or other details I cannot share your view. If either of these happened to me without further context (assuming it was a swastika or something) I would assume it was a fluke. Contrast with less ambiguous threats such as an actual noose hanging over the balcony and no whites allowed signs put up by water fountains, which actually did happen at my school district. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/85 "2022-03-03T17:50:01Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > If either of these happened to me without further context (assuming it was a swastika or something) I would assume it was a fluke. If you were the only Black person and that happened to you, you’d assume it was a fluke? Really? Or did you forget that part of the scenario. (I also assume, in keeping with the real-life scenario, you were the only one in either case to have that happen to them, and your white peers did not experience that.) ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/86 "2022-03-03T17:54:03Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > If you were the only Black person and that happened to you, you’d assume it was a fluke? Really? Or did you forget that part of the scenario. I did forget about that. I’m still not sure the newspaper example but if my textbook was the only one opened like that, it’s more likely than not a message for me. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/87 "2022-03-03T17:58:58Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The books could be open to that page because that is today’s lesson. And only the Black student’s book is opened to that page? > [@Max\_S](#): > > The newspaper could be left in that state by coincidence, or it may be that a burning cross makes the front page. And only the Black employee would find that newspaper article to be of interests? > [@Max\_S](#): > > If either of these happened to me without further context (assuming it was a swastika or something) I would assume it was a fluke. You go into your office, and someone has placed on your desk a picture of the Nuremberg rally. You just assume that someone thought you were interested in history, and was passing that along to you? > [@Max\_S](#): > > Contrast with less ambiguous threats such as an actual noose hanging over the balcony That could just be a Boy Scout showing off his knot tying prowess. > [@Max\_S](#): > > no whites allowed signs put up by water fountains Maybe your school had a problem with people doing their laundry in water fountains. See, it’s always easy to make up contexts that justify potential racial insults, if what one is doing is _trying_ to justify potential racial insults. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/88 "2022-03-03T17:59:59Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > if my textbook was the only one opened like that, it’s more likely than not a message for me. How does that even parse? If you were the one singled out, you don’t think it’s a message to you? Did you really mean to say that? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/89 "2022-03-03T18:03:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > How does that even parse? “More likely than not” is a turn of phrase meaning reasonably likely, \>50% likely, probably, etc. You can read it as “if my textbook was the only one opened like that, it’s ~~more likely than not~~ _probably_ a message for me.” ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/90 "2022-03-03T18:12:09Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > You can read it as “if my textbook was the only one opened like that, it’s ~~more likely than not~~ _probably_ a message for me.” I got it, that’s a turn of phrase I’m familiar with (and use often). ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/91 "2022-03-03T18:12:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And only the Black employee would find that newspaper article to be of interests? This question appears to come from left field. Presumably the person who used the newspaper last found something on that page to be of interest, and if I’m the only Black employee, this other person isn’t Black. Unlike a textbook I’d think it’s normal for there to only be one newspaper in the office and if there’s a picture of a burning cross, it’s going to be a headliner for the local or national section. Just because the only Black employee sees this picture face up on a desk or table doesn’t mean he or she is being targeted, unless there’s more goings on in the hypothetical. I mean, it _could_ be a targeted message, but I think that is _unlikely_. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > That could just be a Boy Scout showing off his knot tying prowess. That’s not likely IMO. (Also I don’t remember ever tying a noose in Boy Scouts. Fisherman’s knots, if that’s what you mean, but why would you do that with rope and hang it over a balcony) The colored and whites only signs on the water fountains have to be taken into account as well, since it was all around the same time. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/92 "2022-03-03T18:13:14Z")
Sorry, I did in fact misread that. Even though I went over it twice, I think I saw it as “more than likely not a message for me”. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/93 "2022-03-03T18:18:59Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Just because the only Black employee sees this picture face up on a desk or table doesn’t mean he or she is being targeted, unless there’s more goings on in the hypothetical. Mayhap you misread _me_, as I specifically said, “on their desk”, not _a_ desk or table. > [@Max\_S](#): > > That’s not likely IMO. (Also I don’t remember ever tying a noose in Boy Scouts.) The colored and whites only signs on the water fountains have to be taken into account as well, since it was all around the same time. Sure, my justifications aren’t likely, but the entire point is to analogize and make you see that your justifications are just as out there. Difference is, I _know_ that the justifications that I gave are a poor argument, and wouldn’t actually try to stand behind them. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/94 "2022-03-03T18:20:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Mayhap you misread _me_ , as I specifically said, “on their desk”, not _a_ desk or table. Some desks are tables, for example the receptionist’s desk (“_the_ desk” / “_my_ desk” for pretty much everyone since we all have our inboxes there) at my workplace. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/95 "2022-03-03T18:26:13Z")
That is entirely irrelevant to anything being discussed here. The operative word here is “their” used as an indefinite third person singular to demonstrate ownership or possession. The operative word is _not_ whether it was a desk or table. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/96 "2022-03-03T19:14:15Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > the reasonableness standard there applies to the nature of the conduct; an objective measure of how outrageous it is Well, while it may seem outrageous to email a Black woman the image of a Klansman giving a Nazi salute, I don’t think it’s outrageous to email a _legislator_ a message comparing their political position to that of the KKK and Nazis. Upthread **Kimstu** imagined political messaging that I assume she would think is not outrageous or intolerable or indecent, > [@Kimstu](#): > > If, for example, a group of concerned Black constituents were trying to tell a Black legislator that her proposed bill was a terrible idea and was promoting the agenda of the Ku Klux Klan, would they send her a message with a picture of a Klansman on it? > > No, they would not; they would send her a message saying “Dear Delegate Walker, We are deeply horrified and disappointed that blah blah blah…How can you promote an anti-Black measure endorsed by the racist terrorists of the Ku Klux Klan?” Or something along those lines. I think such a message is decent enough for today’s political landscape. I am of the opinion that the text of the email actually sent is to the same effect. The question for me is whether the inclusion of an _image_ of a Klansman throwing a Nazi salute would transform the above decent message into an outrageous, intolerably indecent message. I don’t think it does. In my opinion these memelike images ([apolitical example in post #53](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/53)) are a modern mainstay of political discourse. I don’t think Nazi and KKK imagery is outrageously indecent when levied as criticism in politics; I could imagine John Oliver talking about Mr. Trump’s speeches and then saying, “you know who else said that?”, raise eyebrow, cue the image of Hitler throwing a Nazi salute… would it be outrageous and indecent to send a clip of that segment to, say, Trump-supporting and Jewish Representative David Kustoff for Tennessee’s 8th District? Or to send a still of the segment with the caption? Because IMO such an email would be fine, and that’s the equivalent to what we’re dealing with here. If the message was hand-delivered by a Klansman with a Nazi salute to boot, _that_ I think crosses the line. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/97 "2022-03-03T19:24:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The operative word here is “their” used as an indefinite third person singular to demonstrate ownership or possession. The operative word is _not_ whether it was a desk or table. I don’t know where you are going with this. It doesn’t make a difference to me whether it’s a desk or table vs their desk or table vs their desk. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Presumably the person who used the newspaper last found something on that page to be of interest, and if I’m the only Black employee, this other person isn’t Black. Unlike a textbook I’d think it’s normal for there to only be one newspaper in the office and if there’s a picture of a burning cross, it’s going to be a headliner for the local or national section. Just because the only Black employee sees this picture face up on a desk or table doesn’t mean he or she is being targeted, unless there’s more goings on in the hypothetical. Correction: Presumably the person who used the newspaper last found something on that page to be of interest, and if I’m the only Black employee, this other person isn’t Black. Unlike a textbook I’d think it’s normal for there to only be one newspaper in the office and if there’s a picture of a burning cross, it’s going to be a headliner for the local or national section. Just because the only Black employee sees this picture face up on **their desk** doesn’t mean he or she is being targeted, unless there’s more goings on in the hypothetical. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/98 "2022-03-03T20:26:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > Contrast with less ambiguous threats such as an actual noose hanging over the balcony > > That could just be a Boy Scout showing off his knot tying prowess. My friends and I used to tie nooses all the time as kids. It was literally “gallows humor”, with a dollop of knot tying skill. It was completely innocent if racism meaning. But if we’d left one hanging in front of the one house with a Black family, i hope our parents would have made it EXTREMELY CLEAR that we had done something wrong, even if our motivations had been innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/99 "2022-03-03T20:56:40Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I could imagine John Oliver talking about Mr. Trump’s speeches and then saying, “you know who else said that?”, raise eyebrow, cue the image of Hitler throwing a Nazi salute… would it be outrageous and indecent to send a clip of that segment to, say, Trump-supporting and Jewish Representative David Kustoff for Tennessee’s 8th District? Yes. It is not decent to deliberately single out Jewish people for criticism or complaint using Nazi imagery. Not even if your ostensible message is “Look how bad these Nazis are, don’t be like them”. The ass-covering veneer of tsk-tsking at Nazis (or Klansmen) is just too thin to disguise the deliberate provocation in such offensive assholishness. As I remarked about such tactics back in post #36, “Excuse me, your suppressed glee at being able to indulge in this offensive form of expression while claiming to reject it is showing.” ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/100 "2022-03-03T22:02:47Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > My friends and I used to tie nooses all the time as kids. It was literally “gallows humor”, with a dollop of knot tying skill. It was completely innocent if racism meaning. But if we’d left one hanging in front of the one house with a Black family, i hope our parents would have made it EXTREMELY CLEAR that we had done something wrong, even if our motivations had been innocent. Same here. I learned how to make nooses as a kind of sick fun. I have never considered leaving one for anyone, even for someone I knew, simply as a joke. If they came on it and didn’t know the context, it would be seen as a death threat, which isn’t funny. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845.md?page=6)