# WV lawmakers suffer stomach illness after drinking raw milk to celebrate legalizing raw milk **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 9, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437 "2016-03-09T18:24:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/21 "2016-03-10T15:04:55Z")
Its also nice to have if you are into cheesemaking. And aging cheese makes it safer. Not being able to get raw milk is a problem if you are an amateur cheesemaker. Which frankly doesn’t seem fair when you can brew beer in your basement, but can’t make cheddar. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/22 "2016-03-10T15:26:53Z")
There should be a rational, public health-based calculation. If making raw milk available at all creates a significant public health risk, then fuck freedom of choice in this matter. This is not a civil or human rights matter. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/23 "2016-03-10T15:28:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There’s no scientific benefit to drinking raw milk. It’s just that some people believe it’s more natural and therefore must be healthier. There is a benefit to drinking raw milk: it tastes better. I agree that’s not exactly a scientific benefit, but it’s certainly a rational one. Against that benefit, one must weigh the detriment that it is less healthy, in the sense that the potential for disease is much higher, and the recognition that there is no nutritional difference. I favor the legality of raw milk primarily for the cheese it makes possible. I’ve had it, and like the flavor better, but harbor no illusions about any nutritional or health benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/24 "2016-03-10T15:29:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There should be a rational, public health-based calculation. If making raw milk available at all creates a significant public health risk, then fuck freedom of choice in this matter. This is not a civil or human rights matter. Who gets to decide what is “significant” in this instance? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/25 "2016-03-10T15:43:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Who gets to decide what is “significant” in this instance? For the purposes of the post that you are responding to, it is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/26 "2016-03-10T15:48:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Who gets to decide what is “significant” in this instance? This feels like one of the questions I ask my third graders to get them to understand how government works. The answer is, our elected officials, or the bureaucrats they appoint to carry out duties. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/27 "2016-03-10T15:49:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > For the purposes of the post that you are responding to, it is irrelevant. How so? You propose that the decision on the legality of selling raw milk should be made by recourse to an assessment of whether it poses a “significant” health risk, and if it does, this is sufficient to “fuck freedom of choice.” Or is that summary mistaken? If that summary is accurate, then I’d suggest it’s very relevant how that determination gets made. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/28 "2016-03-10T15:50:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This feels like one of the questions I ask my third graders to get them to understand how government works. The answer is, our elected officials, or the bureaucrats they appoint to carry out duties. Right? That would be my answer, yes. I’m trying to learn if it’s also his. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/29 "2016-03-10T15:52:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How so? You propose that the decision on the legality of selling raw milk should be made by recourse to an assessment of whether it poses a “significant” health risk, and if it does, this is sufficient to “fuck freedom of choice.” > > Or is that summary mistaken? > > If that summary is accurate, then I’d suggest it’s very relevant how that determination gets made. I am proposing a statement of value that I am saying should be applied by whatever legal authority is empowered in whatever legal system exists. I am not proposing a statement about how that legal system should be constructed, which is what you seem to want to hijack every statement of value with. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/30 "2016-03-10T16:12:07Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I am proposing a statement of value that I am saying should be applied by whatever legal authority is empowered in whatever legal system exists. I am not proposing a statement about how that legal system should be constructed, which is what you seem to want to hijack every statement of value with. The problem is that your statement is so ambiguous as to be useless. Someone could read it as proposing that some medical or scientific review board or authority be granted broad regulatory power; someone else could assume you are simply expressing the aspirational goal that lawmakers weigh scientific advice on this matter higher than the inchoate desire to protect “freedom of choice.” This is not a hijack. It’s an illustration of how valueless your “statement of value,” is. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/31 "2016-03-10T16:17:28Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > That doesn’t answer the question though. > > Seriously, is there some kind of perceived “advantage” of raw milk? Does it taste “better”? If you are unhappily pregnant, but can’t get an abortion drinking raw milk has the advantage over pasteurized milk of vastly increasing the likelihood of killing the fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/32 "2016-03-10T16:23:13Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Its also nice to have if you are into cheesemaking. And aging cheese makes it safer. Not being able to get raw milk is a problem if you are an amateur cheesemaker. Which frankly doesn’t seem fair when you can brew beer in your basement, but can’t make cheddar. Huh, _cuajada_ is made from sheep milk; my local supermarkets sell both the pasteurized milk and _cuajada_ “bugs”… admittedly, the only other thing from which you can get the appropriate bugs in the local supermarket is yoghurt (you seed yoghurt with supermarket yoghurt). And we’ve made cottage cheese from pasteurized and UHT milk both, but never bothered try to age it. Wonder if there would be a small-scale market for cheese bugs… ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/33 "2016-03-10T16:25:56Z")
Many more people are killed or made sick each year from eating peanuts and related products than are killed or made sick from raw milk, yet we do not make peanuts illegal. We label products and expect concerned consumers to read labels to avoid nuts and products with nuts. In CA raw milk and raw milk products are labeled, we expect concerned consumers to read labels and avoid raw milk and raw milk products. How is it any different? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/34 "2016-03-10T16:28:28Z")
Pasteurization was invented to prevent things like bovine tuberculosis. Two of my great grandmother’s children died from it in their teens. Why anybody today takes a chance with this sort of thing is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/35 "2016-03-10T16:38:04Z")
> [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > Many more people are killed or made sick each year from eating peanuts and related products than are killed or made sick from raw milk, yet we do not make peanuts illegal. We label products and expect concerned consumers to read labels to avoid nuts and products with nuts. In CA raw milk and raw milk products are labeled, we expect concerned consumers to read labels and avoid raw milk and raw milk products. How is it any different? Maybe because far more people are exposed to peanut butter than raw milk. The numbers would certainly be different if raw milk was as cheap and plentiful as pasteurized milk. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/36 "2016-03-10T16:44:47Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Maybe because far more people are exposed to peanut butter than raw milk. > The numbers would certainly be different if raw milk was as cheap and plentiful as pasteurized milk. But would not labeling and expecting people to read labels still be the issue? If someone has an allergy to peanuts and eats something labeled that it contains peanuts, we don’t get mad at the peanut industry or try to ban peanuts. We think they are foolish for not reading the label. I don’t see how it’s different if we apply the same labeling laws to raw milk and raw milk products. ---
**Author:** ![Whatever4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@Whatever4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whatever4)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/37 "2016-03-10T16:51:42Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > You have an odd sense of humor. > “C’mon, goats! I’m taking you all to Disneyland! JUST KIDDING! You’re all getting vaccinated and tested for TB and brucellosis, LOL.” I thought of rephrasing that, but why deny a Doper the chance to have a bit of fun. Well done.😃 ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/38 "2016-03-10T16:54:01Z")
> [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > But would not labeling and expecting people to read labels still be the issue? If someone has an allergy to peanuts and eats something labeled that it contains peanuts, we don’t get mad at the peanut industry or try to ban peanuts. We think they are foolish for not reading the label. I don’t see how it’s different if we apply the same labeling laws to raw milk and raw milk products. Useful labelling about nuts is a very new thing - within the past 10 years. Especially labelling that indicates that while the product does not contain nuts, it may have been exposed to cross contamination. And there’s a big difference between a food that is perfectly safe for most people, but deadly to a few, and a food that in individual sale units may be safe, and may be deadly, with absolutely no way to know of ahead of time. Before legally selling raw milk I’d expect there to be a huge education campaign (ideally paid for by the raw milk industry), explaining exactly why drinking raw milk might be a terrible idea. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/39 "2016-03-10T17:13:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The problem is that your statement is so ambiguous as to be useless. Someone could read it as proposing that some medical or scientific review board or authority be granted broad regulatory power; someone else could assume you are simply expressing the aspirational goal that lawmakers weigh scientific advice on this matter higher than the inchoate desire to protect “freedom of choice.” > > This is not a hijack. It’s an illustration of how valueless your “statement of value,” is. This is nonsense. Even when discussing political issues, it it perfectly legitimate to discuss a principle without reference specifically to how exactly that principle should be applied. I was responding to posts that expressed the value that “people should have the freedom to buy raw milk if they want to.” I am expressing the value that freedom should not be a consideration in this type of situation. Now whether that principle is applied through electing particular parties or legislators or by the appointment of an independent public health commission or any other political mechanism is not the point of my comment or the point of my disagreement with the other commenters. It’s a disagreement over what the value is that should be the basis for a decision regardless of how that value is implemented. And that is a perfectly valid discussion to have. It is neither vague nor useless. It’s like saying “stories that avoid clichés are better stories” and then your stepping up and saying “unless you can state how you propose to require writers to write fewer clichés than that is a vague and useless statement of value.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/40 "2016-03-10T17:23:31Z")
And it is a hijack because it is just another instance of your steering a conversation to the conclusion that “If you can’t prove that the legislature is violating the constitution when doing this, then you need to take it back and/or lose a bet with me.” Expressions of value of what should be done, how decisions should be made and criticisms of people who fail to meet such values are perfectly legitimate without reference to the constitutional mechanism for achieving ideals. And I’m certain you’ll find that the majority of members of our profession believe that too. Not every lawyer believes that every question of public import begins and ends with “prove that it’s not illegal.” You’re a smart guy, Bricker, and I respect your education, knowledge, and skills, but that is some bullshit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437.md?page=3)