# WV lawmakers suffer stomach illness after drinking raw milk to celebrate legalizing raw milk **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 9, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437 "2016-03-09T18:24:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/41 "2016-03-10T17:30:07Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is nonsense. Even when discussing political issues, it it perfectly legitimate to discuss a principle without reference specifically to how exactly that principle should be applied. > > I was responding to posts that expressed the value that “people should have the freedom to buy raw milk if they want to.” I am expressing the value that freedom should not be a consideration in this type of situation. > > Now whether that principle is applied through electing particular parties or legislators or by the appointment of an independent public health commission or any other political mechanism is not the point of my comment or the point of my disagreement with the other commenters. > > It’s a disagreement over what the value is that should be the basis for a decision regardless of how that value is implemented. And that is a perfectly valid discussion to have. It is neither vague nor useless. > > It’s like saying “stories that avoid clichés are better stories” and then your stepping up and saying “unless you can state how you propose to require writers to write fewer clichés than that is a vague and useless statement of value.” The difference is that no reasonable reader would take “stories that avoid clichés are better stories,” as a prelude to a normative proposal for some method of requiring authors to avoid clichés. But your “statement of value,” looks very much like just that sort of proposal. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/42 "2016-03-10T17:59:48Z")
We either had a raw milk thread on SDMB or Giraffe Board recently. It explored more the laws which vary state by state. IIRC, some states allow it to be sold from the farm If the consumer goes there to buy. I assume that would help amateur cheesemakers. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/43 "2016-03-10T18:00:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There is a benefit to drinking raw milk: it tastes better. I agree that’s not exactly a scientific benefit, but it’s certainly a rational one. That’s why I specified there was no scientific benefit. The benefits of drinking raw milk, including taste, are subjective. The risks, on the other hand, are objectively real. So the analogy I would make is that raw milk is like cigarettes. Consumption of these is arguably a choice that informed adults should be able to make for themselves (and I personally agree with that argument). But it’s a dumb choice to make. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/44 "2016-03-10T18:03:46Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > We either had a raw milk thread on SDMB or Giraffe Board recently. It explored more the laws which vary state by state. > > IIRC, some states allow it to be sold from the farm If the consumer goes there to buy. I assume that would help amateur cheesemakers. Apparently some states have a loophole that allows the owner of the cow to drink its raw milk. So people get around the law by buying “shares” in a herd which entitle them to a portion of the milk the herd produces. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/45 "2016-03-10T18:27:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The difference is that no reasonable reader would take “stories that avoid clichés are better stories,” as a prelude to a normative proposal for some method of requiring authors to avoid clichés. But your “statement of value,” looks very much like just that sort of proposal. That is an utterly ridiculous assumption to make based solely on a statement of value. Indeed, it’s a form of power play to try to force anyone with a political opinion to argue against the assertion that “what you’re really saying is that our entire constitutional system will be abrogated in order to implement your policy judgment.” It’s a way of forcing people to stop talking about the intrinsic value of a proposition and to instead argue about constitutional law. It’s a form of conversational coercion and diversion. But to avoid any further such hijacks please feel free to assume that when I say something “should” happen that what I am saying is that a team of seven acrobats wearing purple parkas and armed with lawn darts will be sent in a 1957 Chevy pickup truck to make it happen. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/46 "2016-03-10T18:30:39Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > We either had a raw milk thread on SDMB or Giraffe Board recently. It explored more the laws which vary state by state. > > IIRC, some states allow it to be sold from the farm If the consumer goes there to buy. I assume that would help amateur cheesemakers. If you are close enough to a farm that will sell raw milk. If you are hundreds of miles from such a farm, it isn’t practical. I’m not a raw milk over the counter fan though - the issue for me is that milk is consumed by lots of kids - and young kids without fully developed immune systems. Like vaccination, pasteurization has saved millions of lives. We forget that now that we don’t watch many people die. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/47 "2016-03-10T18:45:25Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I’m not a raw milk over the counter fan though - the issue for me is that milk is consumed by lots of kids - and young kids without fully developed immune systems. Like vaccination, pasteurization has saved millions of lives. We forget that now that we don’t watch many people die. I agree with this. I can easily see that the same sort of foolishness that’s led parents to keep from vaccinating their children (“Measles aren’t _that_ bad!”) could lead uneducated (or foolish) parents to decide “raw milk must be better for my kids!” Making raw milk easily available for adults to make an informed (if potentially dangerous) decision for themselves means that you’re also making it available for foolish parents to injure their children with it. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/48 "2016-03-10T18:51:34Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I agree with this. I can easily see that the same sort of foolishness that’s led parents to keep from vaccinating their children (“Measles aren’t _that_ bad!”) could lead uneducated (or foolish) parents to decide “raw milk must be better for my kids!” > > Making raw milk easily available for adults to make an informed (if potentially dangerous) decision for themselves means that you’re also making it available for foolish parents to injure their children with it. I think with a hell of a lot of red-tape bureaucracy there might be a way to do it that I’d feel comfortable with. Raw milk only available at places licensed to sell it, and you have to consult with someone trained (you realize raw milk may harbor bacteria that could make you seriously ill and perhaps even kill you - in particular do not give raw milk to children, anyone with immune system disorders, or the elderly) and sign off to get it - like we treat the good cold medicine now. I’m not sure the red tape would be worth it for anyone but a few urban cheesemakers, foodies, and natural foods fans - not a big enough population to put it in place. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/49 "2016-03-10T19:07:29Z")
Blessed are the cheesemakers. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/50 "2016-03-10T19:15:54Z")
Seems to me that their karma ran over their dogma. This is deregulation run wild. You want to drink raw milk? Buy a cow or find someone who owns one. Anything on the grocery shelves should be made safe to drink. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/51 "2016-03-10T19:35:54Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Blessed are the cheesemakers. What’s so special about the cheesemakers? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/52 "2016-03-10T19:36:24Z")
Like hard alcohol? Or even soda to diabetic children? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/53 "2016-03-10T19:37:26Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > What’s so special about the cheesemakers? It was a random Life of Brian reference ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/54 "2016-03-10T19:38:35Z")
Don’t know how Bricker got there and can’t edit on Tapatalk. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/55 "2016-03-10T19:44:02Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > It was a random Life of Brian reference But did **Boyo Jim** mean it literally, or does it refer to any manufacturers of dairy products? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/56 "2016-03-10T19:48:03Z")
For every cheese, a blessing; and for every blessing, a cheese. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/57 "2016-03-11T05:53:01Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That is an utterly ridiculous assumption to make based solely on a statement of value. > . > . > . > But to avoid any further such hijacks please feel free to assume that when I say something “should” happen that what I am saying is that a team of seven acrobats wearing purple parkas and armed with lawn darts will be sent in a 1957 Chevy pickup truck to make it happen. Ok. Then I feel it necessary to point out that your plan has virtually no chance. It’s utterly without value, this statement of value of yours. It has no useful connection to anyone actually making raw milk policy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/58 "2016-03-11T09:39:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You want to drink raw milk? Buy a cow But you should probably check your lease first. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/59 "2016-03-11T12:18:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok. > > Then I feel it necessary to point out that your plan has virtually no chance. It’s utterly without value, this statement of value of yours. It has no useful connection to anyone actually making raw milk policy. You surely have deep insight into the practicalities of circus-performer-based coercive systems. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/60 "2016-03-11T13:31:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s why I specified there was no scientific benefit. The benefits of drinking raw milk, including taste, are subjective. The risks, on the other hand, are objectively real. From the “stupid Republican idea” thread, > [@Stupid Republican idea of the day](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stupid-republican-idea-of-the-day/490897/27847): > > Science is good. I’m not a raw-milk guy, but there is [evidence](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17456213.1) that raw dairy consumption in childhood protects against asthma and allergy. Also, [a current study](http://nutrition.stanford.edu/projects/RawMilkStudy.html) is exploring the widely-held idea that raw milk is more acceptable for people with lactose intolerance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437.md?page=4)