# WV lawmakers suffer stomach illness after drinking raw milk to celebrate legalizing raw milk **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 9, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437 "2016-03-09T18:24:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/61 "2016-03-11T13:58:36Z")
> [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > But would not labeling and expecting people to read labels still be the issue? If someone has an allergy to peanuts and eats something labeled that it contains peanuts, we don’t get mad at the peanut industry or try to ban peanuts. We think they are foolish for not reading the label. I don’t see how it’s different if we apply the same labeling laws to raw milk and raw milk products. I think my biggest fear is being served food (like cheese) made with raw milk by a well-meaning friend who just buys whatever at Whole Foods, or being served something dangerous at a hipster Happy Hour place trying to be a bit fancier with the pricey milk (indeed, I just got warned off a dish at one- thank goodness I’m visibly pregnant) Because it sound innocuous and isn’t really dangerous to most people, people aren’t really aware of how dangerous it can be for some of us, and milk and cheese is just such a common ingredient. Listeria is rare, but in places where raw milk is used (like the underground Latino cheese makers in CA), it’s hideously common. And it really is a nightmare. Something I unwittingly ate over Christmas could still kill my 7-month old baby-to-be today. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/62 "2016-03-11T14:24:23Z")
> [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > Many more people are killed or made sick each year from eating peanuts and related products than are killed or made sick from raw milk, yet we do not make peanuts illegal. We label products and expect concerned consumers to read labels to avoid nuts and products with nuts. In CA raw milk and raw milk products are labeled, we expect concerned consumers to read labels and avoid raw milk and raw milk products. How is it any different? When raw milk makes you sick, it’s because there’s something wrong with the milk. When peanuts make you sick, it’s because there’s something wrong with you. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/63 "2016-03-11T14:25:44Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > … (like the underground Latino cheese makers in CA) … Now that sounds like an interesting subculture … ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/64 "2016-03-11T14:32:23Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > Now that sounds like an interesting subculture … On the off chance that you’re not just (or not only) making a pun … You’ve heard of “bathtub cheese,” right? ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/65 "2016-03-11T14:40:40Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You’ve heard of “bathtub cheese,” right? Well, I guess you could make your own cheese in a bathtub, but to be honest, I have never given it much thought. This isn’t illegal, or is it? ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/66 "2016-03-11T14:51:20Z")
> [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > How many other people in the state drank raw milk and didn’t get sick? > > I’m glad it is legal. People should have the choice to drink raw or cooked (pasteurized) milk, just like they have the choice to eat raw or cooked meat. True story: Idiot that I am, on several occasions in a restaurant I ate steak tartare (raw beef _and_ raw egg!) in Mozambique, while pregnant and later while breastfeeding. Knowing what I do now about how meat can be contaminated through improper butchering, not to mention anthrax and all that, I fully admit that I was supremely stupid. If my dumbassery had been prevented because serving what I ate was illegal…well, I’d be fulling supporting that now. I am just lucky that my baby and I suffered no negative consequences. Jeezus. RAW BEEF in AFRICA? What the hell was I thinking? Well…I wasn’t thinking. Sometimes regulation can save us from ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/67 "2016-03-11T14:51:38Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > This isn’t illegal, or is it? Depends on the state. Some places it really is illegal to make your own cheese for your own consumption, without code compliance. Others, the making is legal, but not sale. [The issue goes back some years, and is not limited to the West.](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5026a3.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/68 "2016-03-11T16:36:07Z")
> [@Maxjohnson](#): > > my opinion is rationalwiki is about as useless or often more useless than wikipedia. also dailykos is a useless astroturfing website as well. > [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > How is that useful to this discussion? It’s useful to know when a poster has no evidence-based contributions to make and wishes to dismiss useful data through sneers directed at the source. It’s like when you refer to a detailed article on Science-Based Medicine which references and analyzes multiple peer-reviewed studies, and the response is “that’s just a blog”. While it’s easy to laugh at dumb WV legislators who sickened themselves drinking raw milk to celebrate a dumb law, there are a lot of people who could be a risk of considerably worse outcomes, including children fed unpasteurized milk by their parents. Keeping this product out of commercial sales for well-documented public health reasons is a classic responsibility of good government. And I highly doubt the people who swear raw milk tastes better could so distinguish consistently in blinded tests. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/69 "2016-03-11T16:38:53Z")
Does Canada or France have a problem with raw milk cheese? I’m pretty sure you can get raw milk cheese (soft) in Canada and France that you can’t get in the USA. Is there a higher incidence of death related to these raw milk cheeses? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/70 "2016-03-11T17:17:21Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And I highly doubt the people who swear raw milk tastes better could so distinguish consistently in blinded tests. Before I hysterically at this claim, I wonder if you might share whether you’ve ever tried raw milk before? If you have not, then a further question: on what do you base this doubt? If you have, then I wonder if you believe you have a palate for tasting differences in similar food or drink. For example, can you reliably identify an Islay single-malt scotch from a Highland? A Semillion from a Reisling? Gorgonzola from Roquefort? If you say that you are well attuned to such distinctions, and you have tried raw milk, and cannot discern a consistent difference between it and pasteurized milk, I will be … surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/71 "2016-03-11T17:22:56Z")
[Here is an article](http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-raw-milk-tasting) that describes a blind taste test between four milk samples, two goat and two cow, one each raw and pasteurized. It describes clear differences in taste, texture, and color. Would you care to re-assess your high doubts? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/72 "2016-03-11T17:25:43Z")
Perhaps they should just say, you can drink raw milk, but any resulting healthcare costs will not be covered by your insurance and you will be on the hook for the full tab for any Dr visits, meds, hospitalization. Then if people want to roll the dice with their health and their wallet they can have at it, why would anyone else care? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/73 "2016-03-11T17:28:40Z")
I love raw milk cheeses. I can really taste the difference. When I’m in France or Italy, I take the opportunity to enjoy. In America, health regulations require that cheese be made of pasteurized milk or be aged X amount of time. I deal. I don’t think my personal preference for raw milk cheeses should trump—or even be taken into account—for the decision made by public health experts based on solid data on whether raw milk cheeses should be available commercially. In our recent past, problems with unpasteurized milk caused tremendous health problems. A ban on raw milk helped ameliorate those problems, in the same way that mandatory vaccination helped ameliorate problems caused by virulent diseases. Personal preferences have to give way when faced with public health problems like these. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/74 "2016-03-11T17:32:46Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Perhaps they should just say, you can drink raw milk, but any resulting healthcare costs will not be covered by your insurance and you will be on the hook for the full tab for any Dr visits, meds, hospitalization. > > Then if people want to roll the dice with their health and their wallet they can have at it, why would anyone else care? The problem is that making raw milk commercially available is not just a danger to the people who _choose_ to drink raw milk. Just as failure to vaccinate is not just a danger to the people who _choose_ not to vaccinate. The issue of choice does not solve the problem. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/75 "2016-03-11T17:36:37Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Perhaps they should just say, you can drink raw milk, but any resulting healthcare costs will not be covered by your insurance and you will be on the hook for the full tab for any Dr visits, meds, hospitalization. > > Then if people want to roll the dice with their health and their wallet they can have at it, why would anyone else care? And if people give it to their children, same lack of coverage? :rolleyes: Or when you’re a guest in someone’s home; failure to ask your host every time if that milk he’s giving you – or is an ingredient in something he’s giving you – is raw should be hazardous to your health & wealth? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/76 "2016-03-11T17:46:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I love raw milk cheeses. I can really taste the difference. When I’m in France or Italy, I take the opportunity to enjoy. In America, health regulations require that cheese be made of pasteurized milk or be aged X amount of time. I deal. I don’t think my personal preference for raw milk cheeses should trump—or even be taken into account—for the decision made by public health experts based on solid data on whether raw milk cheeses should be available commercially. What does the data say about the safety of those French and Italian cheeses? If different practices are recognized to produce different results, why not allow the established raw-dairy practices of those countries to be used here? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/77 "2016-03-11T17:52:28Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What does the data say about the safety of those French and Italian cheeses? If different practices are recognized to produce different results, why not allow the established raw-dairy practices of those countries to be used here? Allow it if it’s relevant. I have no problem with that. Make an argument that public policy in the United States should take data from their experiences. Apply that data to the economic, political, and social vectors here. Let the experts figure out what the best course of action is and then act based on their expertise. My point is that personal preferences or the the idea of “freedom” to consume what you want should not trump an actual public health decision. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/78 "2016-03-11T17:53:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I wonder if you believe you have a palate for tasting differences in similar food or drink. For example, can you reliably identify an Islay single-malt scotch from a Highland? A Semillion from a Reisling? Gorgonzola from Roquefort? > > If you say that you are well attuned to such distinctions, and you have tried raw milk, and cannot discern a consistent difference between it and pasteurized milk, I will be … surprised. Oh dear me - I have inadvertently struck at a Brickerian foundational belief - that a Man of Distinction’s palate can distinguish (as in the case of Brian Eno’s “Fat Lady of Limbourg”) the subtleties a spectrograph would miss. Passing over for now the hilarious picture of aficionados raving over raw barn squeezings from Bossie as they would an “elite” Scotch, it has been well-documented that wine and spirits lovers are notoriously incapable of reliably distinguishing between _haute_ labels and much cheaper stuff. Regretfully, it appears **Bricker** didn’t bother to read his linked dairy “blind taste test” article very closely, or he would have noticed that among that small group of women, some actually seemed to prefer the taste/texture of the pasteurized/homogenized product. The “test” also illustrates classic reasons why non-blinded tests are worthless. You cannot expect meaningful outcomes when, for instance, a “raw” product has a particular yellowish color that might signal to participants that “hey, this is supposed to be the good stuff”. Set up a well-designed test where both administrators and testers do not know where the samples are from, and there are no visual cues. Then we can start talking about real taste preferences. I can’t tell from the following linked articles/abstract how well the “blind” milk taste tests were run. But it seems people can’t reliably distinguish between whole and low-fat milk, organic vs. nonorganic milk, and in the last case, the reporter preferred the taste/texture of commercial pasteurized milk to raw milk. > **[Consumer taste tests and milk preference in low-income, urban supermarkets -...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25225871/)** > > Most consumers could not accurately distinguish between various types of milk. Taste testing is a promising strategy to introduce lower-fat milks to consumers who have not tried them before. Campaigns to purchase skimmed, 1 % or 2 % milk may result... > **[Which Milk Tastes Better: Organic or Regular?](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/milk-taste-test_n_1213895)** > > Which Milk Tastes Better: Organic or Regular? > **[Putting raw milk to the test](https://www.jconline.com/story/life/2014/09/15/putting-raw-milk-test/15676373/)** > > Does unpasteurized milk's benefits outweigh its risks? For a lot of raw milk enthusiasts who swear about taste or health benefits, they appear to have fallen for another bovine product extruded from a different orifice. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/79 "2016-03-11T18:18:43Z")
Strangely, in Minnesota I can buy raw milk unaged cheese - but “not for human consumption” Its sold at the farmers market as “bait cheese” - and most people who buy it don’t fish according to the woman who sells it. But the regulation covers her ass, makes the state happy, and creates a point of education for people who buy it. Most people’s default assumption is that in America, the FDA does what they can to keep you from getting sick from your food. We know they aren’t perfect (and some of us know they are underfunded). ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437/80 "2016-03-11T19:14:54Z")
Serious question\hypothetcal Let’s say that California legalizes the sale of raw milk in stores. Is the seller, which I guess would be the producer, not the grocer, still required to make sure there is no bacteria that will cause illness, such as e coli? If there is e coli in the raw milk and people ingest it and become ill, would the producer be liable for damages, regardless of any ‘warning’ label they may have put on the bottle? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-lawmakers-suffer-stomach-illness-after-drinking-raw-milk-to-celebrate-legalizing-raw-milk/748437.md?page=5)