# WW II in Europe post December 1941 - Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2002, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww-ii-in-europe-post-december-1941-why/112325 "2002-06-04T16:31:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww-ii-in-europe-post-december-1941-why/112325/21 "2002-06-05T17:16:24Z")
> [@](#): > > […]this whole question is hypothetical and not of any great importance today except as an illustration of a postmodern mishmash. Really? Again, it does have impact. The cold war ended just 11 years ago. Up until that moment Europe was divided as per the end state of the war which we are here examining, it is only in this period that public debate not tainted by the polemic of the East-West division has started to emerge in a serious way. We’re still dealing with the ‘guilt’ issue in a big way all over Europe, especially in Germany of course. When I moved here (to Germany) I was shocked at how deeply aware even my generation of German’s are of the war, and how much they feel burdened by guilt over the events their grand parents witnessed and helped bring about. Did you ever see the British sitcom ‘Faulty Towers’? John Cleese as Basil Faulty crying “Don’t mention the war! For goodness sake don’t mention the war!” and making inadvertent Hitler salutes while entertaining German guests. Tell you what, that still holds true. The war is not an easy topic to abridge around here, but I think it’s about time we did speak about it. Then again if it isn’t a Great Debate as earlier posited I’m debating in the wrong forum, am I not. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww-ii-in-europe-post-december-1941-why/112325/22 "2002-06-05T19:48:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sparc \* > \*\*Uh? > > Maybe I misunderstood the forum subtitle then… IMHO this _is_ one of the “great questions of our time” as it touches upon the how and why of a huge tragedy (maybe the ‘hugest’ humanity ever knew) which many people are still impacted by in everyday life, especially here in Europe and even more so here in Germany. But then again; who am I to say – maybe we should just stop then, or? > > Sparc \*\* I really don’t think the “huge trajedy” that you speak of was a result of Hitler’s having given up hope for success in December of 1941 to the extent that he planned for Germany’s destruction. However, I’ll retract my comment about Great Debates - sorry I made it. If you think this is a momentous question, then have at it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sparc \* > \*\* > When I moved here (to Germany) I was shocked at how deeply aware even my generation of German’s are of the war, and how much they feel burdened by guilt over the events their grand parents witnessed and helped bring about. … The war is not an easy topic to abridge around here, but I think it’s about time we did speak about it. Then again if it isn’t a Great Debate as earlier posited I’m debating in the wrong forum, am I not. > > Sparc\*\* In my opinion, today’s Germans need not feel guilt about what their grandparents did. For 50 years German behavior in international affairs has been excellent, even exemplary. After all, my grandparents and great-grandparents lived in the last western nation to hold slaves, and which was so enthralled with the “Manifest Destiney” of the United States to occupy all the land from ocean to ocean that the native people already in the territory were considered merely some kind of vermin to be swept aside. I think that we should do all we can to try to correct the effects of those policies, but personal guilt? No, I see no reason for that. Since you have now explained what’s behind your posts I see an attempt here to try to assuage an unnecessay personal guilt by portraying Germany as just another victim of Hitler. It’s the wrong approach in my opinion because it flys in the face of overwhelming evidence that it just isn’t true. It would be far better to examine German history and mythology, as William L. Shirer and others have done, and learn why the Germans of that time so long ago were so easy to convince that Hitler was their savior. I think it would pay to read the Chapter 4 (_The Mind of Hitler and the Roots of The Third Reich_) in Shirer’s _The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich_. Not that Shirer is **right** or the last word, but it is a well researched and supported opinion. It deals with intentions of Hitler as outlined in _Mein Kampf_ and the historical and intellectual bacground in Germany as it affected the acceptance of Hitler’s ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww-ii-in-europe-post-december-1941-why/112325/23 "2002-06-05T23:48:37Z")
Ehem?? You’ll find my reply [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118885). Your earlier post I’ll reply to later when I have let my blood pressure normalize. ---
**Author:** ![WSLer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@WSLer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WSLer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww-ii-in-europe-post-december-1941-why/112325/24 "2002-06-06T01:08:55Z")
This is interesting because I have been reading Richard Rhodes new book _Masters of Death: The SS Einstazgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust_ which has a good deal of insight in to the question of whether Hitler wanted to win the war or wipe out the Jews. I think some of you have some misconspetions about when the Holocaust actually began. Some would say it was when the death camps, (Treblenka, Auschwitz) went into their vile business, while others would say it started with Kristalnacht. Rhodes makes clear in his book that as soon as Germnay invaded Poland, right behind the frontline troops came the Ensatzgruppen whose job was to murder Jews. At first, the Germans merely rounded up the Jews & left the killing to the locals, but soon took over killing duties themselves. A side note–Germany was actually fucked over by Japan, when Japan refused to attack Russia throught Mongolia, as Germany wanted, thus making Russia fight a 2-front war. Thanks to Japan’s refusal, Stalin transfered his entire Far Eastern army, 250,000 men with 1700 tanks and 1500 aircraft and deployed them across Siberia to the Moscow front. **THAT** is what probably killed Germany’s hopes of defeating Russia. Documents from the Wansee Conference on January 20, 1942, when the extermination camps were well into their murderous efforts stated that there were "over 11,000,000 Jews in western and eastern Europe that remained to be killed. The 11,000,000 number included 700,000 Jews in “unoccupied France, 330,000 in England, 4,000 in Ireland, 8,000 in neutral Sweden, 18,000 in neutral Switzerland, 6,000 in fascist Spain, 55,500 in Turkey, 742,800 in Fascist Hungary and 5,000,000 in the portion of the USSR that the Whermacht was just then discovering it might not succeed in conquering even if it shed whole Wannsees of German blood.” Rhodes doesn’t give any evidence that Hitler entirely abandoned hopes of winning the war in favor of killing as many Jews as possible, thought the executions kept right on going up until the final days. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww-ii-in-europe-post-december-1941-why/112325/25 "2002-06-06T17:02:25Z")
> [@](#): > > ## _originally posted by Sparc_ I will later try to argue that this was not only on his mind in December 1941, but pretty much settled. quote: > > ## From Spiegel Online Er werde ihm, erklärte er am 27. November 1941 während eines Empfangs, “keine Träne nachweinen”, wenn es in diesem Krieg “durch eine stärkere Macht zu Grunde ginge”. > > ## I am afraid I didn’t find an English cite with the quote in question on it. quote: > > ## Sparc’s translation At a reception on the 27 November 1941 [Hitler] declares that he “will shed no tears” when in this war [the Germans] “would be destroyed by a mightier power.” (underlining added by **kaylasdad99** ) The word _wenn_ actually translates as “if”, not “when”. The distinction tends to undermine your contention that Hitler had already concluded the inevitability of German’s defeat. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww-ii-in-europe-post-december-1941-why/112325/26 "2002-06-06T17:05:02Z")
_pffft_. Excuse me. **Germany’s** defeat. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww-ii-in-europe-post-december-1941-why/112325/27 "2002-06-07T05:18:16Z")
Hello gentleman, may I introduce myself. I’m a 40 year old Aussie with a keen eye on world affairs and history. Congratulations on remaining cordial over a subject which by it’s very definition, is easy to get extremely ‘heated over’. Of all the posts thus far, all of which have been written imeccably well, I find the most recent by “David Simmons” to be the most pertinent to me - that is, how did one of the world’s most intellectually and industrially advanced nations become sufficiently manipilated that they would ‘democratically’ adopt a man/party which in any other time and circumstances have rung alarm bells from here to eternity. An interesting answer lays in Hitler’s ‘shrewd’ behaviour in the latter half of the 1930’s and at least up until the beginning of 1942 - namely, he ensured, albeit quite articifially, that the living standards of ordinary citizens rose from year to year - and thus, ensured his enduring popularity. Obviously, to do such a thing could not be continued in the face of a war environment, and eventually the debt was paid with Germany’s ruination, but it DOES go a long way to explaining how Hitler got away with it - not everyone in Germany, but the majority certainly found themselves saying “my own personal lifestyle seems to be improving, he must be doing SOMETHING right?” As a quick aside, may I quickly share with you a rather frightening episode we had down here in Australia over the last 7 years, which thankfully seems to have been snuffed out but nonetheless, had awfully similar overtones to Hitler’s era in the early 1930’s - to wit, we had a female politician down here named Pauline Hanson, who wasn’t overly bright, but she had the ability to push the fear button. She exploited the xenophobia of most Australian’s of “European” descent by asserting that ALL of our troubles could be blamed by the massive influx of Asians into our country, and then setting up ghettos where drugs were sold etc etc. They were to blame for EVERYTHING she argued. For a frightening 2 or 3 years, this woman went from strength to strength - her handlers became ever more shrewd and shrewd in their ability to exploit the “hysteria” buttons and she seemingly was on a path similar to Hitler’s ascendancy in 1932. Thank God, but eventually both sides of politics here in Australia started to rail against her, and the forces of ‘sanity’ prevailed. Sadly, however, the experience opened a dreadfully ugly side to human nature - even here in peace loving Australia where realistically, we don’t have much to complain about at all really, do we? And that ugly side? In short, any country, no matter how intelligent, can, if manipulated hard enough and long enough, be whipped up into a state of frenzy where ordinary citizens at the very least, will pardon the systematic ‘picking on’ another race or culture. To say the least, it scared the fucking crap out of me! Anyways, enough about that. Back to the debate gentleman. In short, I think history will show that Hitler’s conceit did him in really - that is, time and time again in the face of advice from his military staff, he believed in his own ‘genius’ and overruled them - to his own detriment of course. Regards, Boo Boo Foo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww-ii-in-europe-post-december-1941-why/112325.md?page=1)