# WW11 Holocaust tattoos. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 21, 2019, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605 "2019-09-21T11:01:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/21 "2019-09-24T00:10:23Z")
I didn’t say that they resisted; I said that they didn’t cooperate. There’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/22 "2019-09-24T10:33:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Could you please elucidate? I’m not sure how changes in euthanaisa laws mean there are fewer Holocaust survivors? Because almost the whole reason we haven’t had euthanasia for the last 70 years is because the Nazi’s gave it a bad name. Euthanasia wasn’t off the agenda in the 1930’s. And Germans continued to think that giving a quick painless death to Jews, in the same way that they already were to handicapped children and elderly, was a good idea. But the effect of that was that in early 21st century, there were still people in Melbourne who would refuse to see a doctor when they were ill, having learned when young that if you saw a doctor when you were ill, you would be put down. When they were still able to speak for themselves, they, their relatives, and the doctors who attended them, were resolutely and categorically against the idea of killing the sick and elderly. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/23 "2019-09-24T11:22:05Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Euthanasia wasn’t off the agenda in the 1930’s. And Germans continued to think that giving a quick painless death to Jews, in the same way that they already were to handicapped children and elderly, was a good idea. I’d be interested in any evidence that they thought of the gas chambers as euthanasia. The main reasons as I understand it were efficiency, preventing revolts when prisoners knew what was going to happen, and preventing traumatic stress on their own soldiers from having to shoot defenseless people point blank. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/24 "2019-09-24T12:34:10Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Because almost the whole reason we haven’t had euthanasia for the last 70 years is because the Nazi’s gave it a bad name. Wow, oversimplify much? You think euthanasia in the early 20th Century _wasn’t_ controversial? > [@Melbourne](#): > > Euthanasia wasn’t off the agenda in the 1930’s. Yeah, that became quite a major problem… Let me clue you in - euthanasia without consent of the dying is MURDER. 12 million weren’t “euthanized” by the Nazis, they were MURDERED because there wasn’t a goddamned reason other than bigotry to kill those people. > [@Melbourne](#): > > And Germans continued to think that giving a quick painless death to Jews, in the same way that they already were to handicapped children and elderly, was a good idea. Is that why Jews (and Romani and various Slavs, and…) were referred to as “vermin”? While _Aktion T4_ might have initially involved individuals thinking they were acting in a merciful manner to ease the suffering of the disabled, it rapidly evolved into assembly-murder, almost always without consent and often without even the knowledge of relatives. If it was so goddamned acceptable why was so much of it done in secret to start? Let me ALSO clue you in that there lots of evidence that the death meted out in the Nazi slaughterhouses was NEITHER painless NOR quick. Zyklon B was deliberately packaged with an eye irritant to warn of leaks to people handling it. Of course, if it being used to kill you the effect was much, much worse. There are marks clawed into the concrete walls of the gas chambers by the panicked and agonized victims, marks clawed into concrete by _bare hands_ - how fucking terrified/agonized do you have to be to do that? Sure, it killed in “minutes” - subjectively those must have been really long minutes. Here, have a [google search](https://www.google.com/search?biw=1283&bih=682&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNRnRM9toMkDBg0ehdpI2KtYfWNywQ%3A1569327773302&sa=1&ei=nQqKXcOAEsOwtgXhwotg&q=scratch+marks+on+gas+chamber+walls&oq=marks+walls+gas+chamber&gs_l=img.1.0.0i8i30.83463.84509..86046...0.0..0.83.396.5......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i8i7i30.cA0qv5hSaJw#imgrc=F5rs7XreU-LTSM:) full of them. **Look at them** and then just try to say those deaths were “quick and painless”. _At best_ your statements about “quick” and “painless” is based on ignorance - which hopefully is now cured. If not, then you are engaging in Holocaust denial and advocating we subject the handicapped, ill, and elderly to an agonizing, terrifying death. I really hope it’s the former and not the latter. > [@Melbourne](#): > > But the effect of that was that in early 21st century, there were still people in Melbourne who would refuse to see a doctor when they were ill, having learned when young that if you saw a doctor when you were ill, you would be put down. Yeah, well, when your family and neighbors are slaughtered like cattle (or cockroaches, depending on the metaphor your choose) it tends to stick with you. > [@Melbourne](#): > > When they were still able to speak for themselves, they, their relatives, and the doctors who attended them, were resolutely and categorically against the idea of killing the sick and elderly. You say that like it’s a bad thing. Look, you want the “freedom” to end your life if your existence becomes intolerable, right? Shouldn’t people have _equal_ freedom to NOT by killed but to die in the manner of their choosing, even if that means no human agency decided the time of their death? Isn’t coercing euthanasia _at least_ as bad as denying it in all cases? (Personally, I think it’s worse, but I recognize your position may be quite different from your own.) I may disagree with your position, but at least in regards to your own life I’d say that yes, you have final say in how you shuffle off this mortal coil, BUT - YOU don’t get to decide whether or not someone else is mercy-killed… because then it would be “mercy-murder” which is an oxymoron. Got news for you - there are people with no connection with the WWII exterminations who are opposed to euthanasia. There will continue to be people going forward who are against euthanasia. There will continue to be people who regard it as pre-meditated murder. That’s because the opposition to euthanasia did not start with the Nazis, nor is the present opposition nothing more than the lingering knee-jerk reaction to industrial murder. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/25 "2019-09-24T22:38:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I didn’t say that they resisted; I said that they didn’t cooperate. There’s a difference. Noted but I’m still not sure I agree. I had the chance when younger to know a few people who went through the camps; both Jewish and non (Russians, Poles). Especially at the arrival stage the design almost forced cooperation; didn’t leave any time or options other than to go with the flow so to speak. Once it got to that stage it really was a machine to process X flesh in Y time. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/26 "2019-09-25T01:00:09Z")
What happened to WW3 - WW10? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/27 "2019-09-25T01:27:11Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Wow, oversimplify much? You think euthanasia in the early 20th Century _wasn’t_ controversial? > . Gosh. My state just legalised euthanasia. I attribute the timing of this to the departure of the last Holocaust survivors from the death camps. My state had a significant proportion of Holocaust survivors – the ones who decided to go to the other side of the world after WWII. Unless you live in NYC, or Israel, probably a bigger proportion than in your state. When you were working in the medical area, were you aware of people who refused to see doctors when sick, because they were afraid they’d be killed? Was it in your cultural awareness training? Is that simplifying? Yes, I’m simplifying: the timing of the legalisation of medically assisted euthanasia in my state was determined largely by the timing of the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/28 "2019-09-25T03:21:44Z")
God yes it’s simplifying, and it also puts the whole of euthanasia politics in one religion and one people. You think Jews were the only ones against euthanasia? You think euthanasia hasn’t been discussed until the last century? Passive euthanasia has been a part of many cultures; active-ish euthanasia (exposure), of many more; assisted suicide was considered acceptable or even a duty in some (through violence, poison or exposure); active euthanasia has to my admittedly limited knowledge been banned in the immense majority of cultures for the immense majority of human history. You’re billions of people and thousands of years off-target. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/29 "2019-09-25T05:22:44Z")
Holy shit, this thread took a hard turn. Was gonna say, there’s a Polish church here in Dallas, and when I was a kid there was a tiny, shrunken little old man who attended every week. I saw the numbers on his arm, once. He’s passed, now, but up till 15 years or so ago there was at least one Holocaust survivor still shuffling around here. But, uh, y’all go back to arguing about euthanasia, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/30 "2019-09-25T09:17:36Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Gosh. My objection to your post was largely due to the inaccuracies you perpetrated. > [@](#): > > My state had a significant proportion of Holocaust survivors – the ones who decided to go to the other side of the world after WWII. Unless you live in NYC, or Israel, probably a bigger proportion than in your state. Are you _at all_ aware that Jews were not the only people murdered in the extermination camps? Yes, Jews were the largest group, but they were not the only ones. 12 million were systematically executed, half of them were not Jewish (the Polish were the next largest group after the Jews, the Romani were also in the "human vermin category, etc.) You stated (emphasis added) > [@Melbourne](#): > > And Germans continued to think that giving a quick painless death to Jews, in the same way that they already were to handicapped children and elderly, was a good idea. NO WAY were the deaths of people in the camps either “painless” or “quick”. And, again, you limit this to just Jews, as if they were the only targets of gas “showers”, systematic starvation, and being worked to death. 12 million people _of all sorts_ were killed horribly and painfully and you minimize it, deny it, and claim it was “quick and painless”. That is disgusting. > [@Melbourne](#): > > When you were working in the medical area, were you aware of people who refused to see doctors when sick, because they were afraid they’d be killed? Was it in your cultural awareness training? Yes, but it wasn’t just the Holocaust - many black people in the US have that same fear due to atrocties like the [Tuskegee syphilis “experiment”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment), [J. Marion Sims purchasing slave women on which to practice surgery over and over without anesthesia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Marion_Sims), and various other atrocities. It is also an issue that many black people in the US are highly reluctant to take their loved ones off life support after brain death due to long-standing fears of unequal treatment, their lives being worth less, and fear of being killed off. As just one example of a group of people having similar fears to what you mention who are not connected to the Holocaust and are not Jewish. So no, opposition to euthanasia is NOT solely a Jewish meme. Again, it is the factual errors to which I am most strongly objecting here. Is your ignorance diminished now? Are you now aware that it was not only Jews murdered in the extermination camps? Are you now aware that the deaths they suffered were horrific, painful, and terrifying? Are you now aware that Jews are not the only people who fear being executed out of bigotry? If yes, we may now resume discussing “camp tattoos” which were not limited to just Jewish people, either. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/31 "2019-09-25T19:16:25Z")
Read Eva Kor’s account of her tattooing [here](https://www.quora.com/What-do-Holocaust-survivors-think-of-their-tattoos). I think a first-hand account is the best response to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![szabrocki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@szabrocki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/szabrocki)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/32 "2019-09-26T02:16:55Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > What happened to WW3 - WW10? Sory i was truing to use Roman Numerals. I messed up. ---
**Author:** ![szabrocki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@szabrocki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/szabrocki)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/33 "2019-09-26T03:00:54Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > Read Eva Kor’s account of her tattooing [here](https://www.quora.com/What-do-Holocaust-survivors-think-of-their-tattoos). I think a first-hand account is the best response to the OP. I did not think any resistors survived by insisting that they were human and had a right to not being tattooed. After all the horrors they endured with much more to come. Thank you for the very moving stories in that link. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/34 "2019-09-26T04:45:25Z")
I think that the only reason Eva survived was that she was an identical twin and Mengele wanted her for his experiments. Still, I admire her for fighting. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/35 "2019-09-26T12:38:17Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > My objection to your post was largely due to the inaccuracies you perpetrated. > Are you _at all_ aware that Jews were not the only people murdered in the extermination camps? Yes, Jews were the largest group, but they were not the only ones. 12 million were systematically executed, half of them were not Jewish (the Polish were the next largest group after the Jews, the Romani were also in the "human vermin category, etc.) > > You stated (emphasis added) > > NO WAY were the deaths of people in the camps either “painless” or “quick”. And, again, you limit this to just Jews, as if they were the only targets of gas “showers”, systematic starvation, and being worked to death. 12 million people _of all sorts_ were killed horribly and painfully and you minimize it, deny it, and claim it was “quick and painless”. That is disgusting. > Yes, but it wasn’t just the Holocaust - many black people in the US have that same fear due to atrocties like the [Tuskegee syphilis “experiment”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment), [J. Marion Sims purchasing slave women on which to practice surgery over and over without anesthesia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Marion_Sims), and various other atrocities. It is also an issue that many black people in the US are highly reluctant to take their loved ones off life support after brain death due to long-standing fears of unequal treatment, their lives being worth less, and fear of being killed off. As just one example of a group of people having similar fears to what you mention who are not connected to the Holocaust and are not Jewish. > > So no, opposition to euthanasia is NOT solely a Jewish meme. > > Again, it is the factual errors to which I am most strongly objecting here. > > Is your ignorance diminished now? Are you now aware that it was not only Jews murdered in the extermination camps? Are you now aware that the deaths they suffered were horrific, painful, and terrifying? Are you now aware that Jews are not the only people who fear being executed out of bigotry? > > If yes, we may now resume discussing “camp tattoos” which were not limited to just Jewish people, either. Granted my only knowledge of Sim’s surgery is from Wikipedia, but based on that, it doesn’t seem like he should be compared to Mengele or the Tuskeegee experiment. None of the accounts can necessarily trusted, but it does seem entirely possible that the women wanted the surgery. He also operated on white women without anaesthesia since it had been invented only a year earlier and still wasn’t accepted as general practice. Yes, the surgery was experimental and unethical by medical standards, but I think the jury should be out on whether it should be considered an “atrocity” like the Tuskeegee experiment or Mengele’s experiments. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/36 "2019-09-26T14:09:05Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > I think that the only reason Eva survived was that she was an identical twin and Mengele wanted her for his experiments. Still, I admire her for fighting. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/37 "2019-09-26T20:56:56Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Granted my only knowledge of Sim’s surgery is from Wikipedia, but based on that, it doesn’t seem like he should be compared to Mengele or the Tuskeegee experiment. None of the accounts can necessarily trusted, but it does seem entirely possible that the women wanted the surgery. He also operated on white women without anaesthesia since it had been invented only a year earlier and still wasn’t accepted as general practice. Yes, the surgery was experimental and unethical by medical standards, but I think the jury should be out on whether it should be considered an “atrocity” like the Tuskeegee experiment or Mengele’s experiments. I have studied up on it in a bit more detail. A couple points: 1. It doesn’t have to be as bad as Tuskeegee or Mengele to be completely unacceptable. 2. These women were _bought as experimental animals_ - they had no ability to consent or not consent, to say stop, they had no rights whatsoever. He practiced on them because if he screwed up and further maimed them or killed them there would be no consequences. Their prior owners turned them over to Sims because at the time, being mutilated by childbirth complications, they no longer had any further use or worth so if they died it wasn’t a big loss, but if they were “repaired” then the owners could reclaim their “breeding stock” and generate more slaves using the women’s bodies. Which reproduction the women also had absolutely no say in, either. 3. He _never_ used anesthesia on black women, even after its use on white women became routine. And he didn’t start performing surgery on white women until after _years_ of practice on black women, so that by the time he did start doing surgery on white women anesthesia was accepted enough that he _always_ used anesthesia on the white women. 4. One woman, Anarcha, had **30** vaginal surgeries in just four years. Do you REALLY think she was enthused about that? But what she thought didn’t matter of course, she was considered property, not a human being. 5. Even some of his contemporaries thought he went too far and was too cruel in his methods, so it’s not just us looking back at him from the 21st Century. He was considered excessive by some people even in his own time. So, yeah, yippee, we have the modern speculum and a working surgical treatment for vaginal fistulas. Bought at the price of agony that could have been relieved but never was, performed upon women who had absolutely no say in what happened to their bodies. We should build monuments to those women who suffered horribly instead of venerating a sadist like Sims. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/38 "2019-09-26T22:07:21Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I have studied up on it in a bit more detail. A couple points: > > 1. It doesn’t have to be as bad as Tuskeegee or Mengele to be completely unacceptable. > > 2. These women were _bought as experimental animals_ - they had no ability to consent or not consent, to say stop, they had no rights whatsoever. He practiced on them because if he screwed up and further maimed them or killed them there would be no consequences. Their prior owners turned them over to Sims because at the time, being mutilated by childbirth complications, they no longer had any further use or worth so if they died it wasn’t a big loss, but if they were “repaired” then the owners could reclaim their “breeding stock” and generate more slaves using the women’s bodies. Which reproduction the women also had absolutely no say in, either. > > 3. He _never_ used anesthesia on black women, even after its use on white women became routine. And he didn’t start performing surgery on white women until after _years_ of practice on black women, so that by the time he did start doing surgery on white women anesthesia was accepted enough that he _always_ used anesthesia on the white women. > > 4. One woman, Anarcha, had **30** vaginal surgeries in just four years. Do you REALLY think she was enthused about that? But what she thought didn’t matter of course, she was considered property, not a human being. > > 5. Even some of his contemporaries thought he went too far and was too cruel in his methods, so it’s not just us looking back at him from the 21st Century. He was considered excessive by some people even in his own time. > > So, yeah, yippee, we have the modern speculum and a working surgical treatment for vaginal fistulas. Bought at the price of agony that could have been relieved but never was, performed upon women who had absolutely no say in what happened to their bodies. We should build monuments to those women who suffered horribly instead of venerating a sadist like Sims. I agree on pretty much all your points. I never said it was acceptable - merely that it’s questionable whether it should be labeled an atrocity - a deliberately wicked and cruel act. I also never implied that any medical technology gains were worth the price paid by those women. I saw that his contemporaries saw it as unethical, but I don’t recall reading that they thought it cruel. It appears a number of modern scholars defend him as abiding by the accepted medical practice of the time. I hardly think my comments can be reasonably construed as “veneration.” I merely said he can’t be compared to the others. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/39 "2019-09-26T23:24:12Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > My objection to your post was largely due to the inaccuracies you perpetrated. > Are you _at all_ aware that Jews were not the only people murdered in the extermination camps? Yes, Jews were the largest group, but they were not the only ones. 12 million were systematically executed, half of them were not Jewish (the Polish were the next largest group after the Jews, the Romani were also in the "human vermin category, etc.) > > You stated (emphasis added) > > NO WAY were the deaths of people in the camps either “painless” or “quick”. And, again, you limit this to just Jews, as if they were the only targets of gas “showers”, systematic starvation, and being worked to death. 12 million people _of all sorts_ were killed horribly and painfully and you minimize it, deny it, and claim it was “quick and painless”. That is disgusting. In my state, the Holocaust survivors with tattoos were _Jewish_ holocaust survivors. In my state, the laws about euthanasia have changed because of the demographics of _Jewish_ Holocaust survivors. You seem to be unaware that there are places in the world where the Holocaust survivors who had Auschwitz tattoos were _Jewish_ holocaust survivors, and for some reason you seem to be doubling down on that by adding insult to ignorance. You also seem to think that medical euthanasia is a term that includes systematic starvation and being worked to death. I can assure you that the medical euthanasia that has been recently legalised in my state (following the departure of most of the last Jewish death camp survivors) does not legalise systematic starvation or being worked to death. Both your ignorance and your anger disgusts me. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605/40 "2019-09-27T00:00:54Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > In my state, the Holocaust survivors with tattoos were _Jewish_ holocaust survivors. In my state, the laws about euthanasia have changed because of the demographics of _Jewish_ Holocaust survivors. Are they assumed to be Jewish, or known to be Jewish? Because I have frequently encountered the notion that the Holocaust was all about and only about Jews and it wasn’t - six million non-Jews were slaughtered along with six million Jews. In Auschwitz alone 150,000 Polish people, 23,000 Roma, 15,000 Soviets, and others besides landed in the camp and those that survived left sporting tattoos. Sure, most of the people at the camp were Jewish, but not all. I used to have a landlord whose Austrian and Catholic mother bore a camp tattoo. > [@](#): > > You seem to be unaware that there are places in the world where the Holocaust survivors who had Auschwitz tattoos were _Jewish_ holocaust survivors, and for some reason you seem to be doubling down on that by adding insult to ignorance. Yes, I’m very aware that there are Jewish people bearing Auschwitz tattoos. Are you aware of the tens of thousands of non-Jewish Auschwitz survivors? Do you think they have any greater love for gas-chamber showers and “euthanasia” than the Jewish survivors do? > [@](#): > > You also seem to think that medical euthanasia is a term that includes systematic starvation and being worked to death. It didn’t _start_ that way under the Nazis - I referenced Aktion T4, the first Nazi “euthanasia” program. It didn’t involve starvation or working, the program runners just outright killed the disabled. The later programs involving slow starvation and working were a means to extract as much work out of the doomed as possible for the least cost. Nasty and brutal, but there was a certain sadistic efficiency to it. Which makes it no less horrific. > [@](#): > > I can assure you that the medical euthanasia that has been recently legalised in my state (following the departure of most of the last Jewish death camp survivors) does not legalise systematic starvation or being worked to death. So? It’s still the legalized killing of human beings by human beings. You don’t understand why that would horrify some people? I HOPE that there are some strong safeguards around the practice, but I’m always going to look at that sort of process and wonder just how voluntary it all is. If someone of sound mind is able to communicate their desire to die that’s one thing, but what about protection for those unable to speak? Those not of sound mind? Who is speaking for them and their best interests? > [@](#): > > Both your ignorance and your anger disgusts me. The same back at you - your condoning of killing people is vile. Crouching this as the Jewish death camp survivors somehow being the only obstacle between your state killing people deliberately is also disgusting, as if no one else could possibly have an objection to euthanasia. (Hint: the Catholic church is against it as well, and there are many more Catholics than Jews in the world.) I just don’t get the eagerness some people display to kill other people. I am _glad_ I don’t understand it, because I would not want to be that sort of awful person. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ww11-holocaust-tattoos/840605.md?page=3)