WWII and Americas Role

Just read a brief comment about the lack of allied move during the invasion of Poland which states that :

  1. The british wanted to make air attacks against Germany, because they had strategic bombers with a longer range than the german ones, but the french opposed it because they were affraid that the Germans would respond in kind by bombing cities in northern and eastern France

2)The french prime minister proposed an attack through Belgium, but the idea was written off due to the obvious political problem : it would have meant invading Belgium. The only other option was to attack the Siegfried line (the fortified line the Germans had build in front of the Maginot line) but :

-France lacked heavy artillery readily available on its eastern boundary, which was necessary to attack the fortified line. Apparently, they began to transport it there but at a very slow pace. The gun still weren’t there when Warsaw was taken by the Germans.

-The french commander-in-chief thought he didn’t have enough motorized units to launch an offensive

-The government and the militaries expected the war to be long and costly and were reluctant to risk important losses at its very beginning

Apparently, the only military operations against Germany was an attack by 9 french divisions on september 8 (5 days after the declaration of war) which was stopped on september 12. They apparently advanced only some kilometers into German territory without opposition, stay there for some time, then were withdrew between the end of September and the beginning of October, when Poland collapsed.

“OK, right, don’t mention the…” BUSH, ”…I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it…”

Bush 1) I think it’s impossible to talk strictly about “war in Europe”; it was a World War, by definition. I think if US would be removed from the planet altogether, Axis would prevail. So US participation was crucial.

Bush 2) Please see ‘Bush 1’ above concerning ability of Europe to prevail in WWII. As far as European gratitude, I heard it being demanded many times on Internet, whether by war veterans or college students I’m not entirely sure; I think by and large it’s well deserved and dutifully bestowed.

Bush 3) No idea about that European attitude, never heard it before, sounds crazy to me. I don’t think there was even a glimmer of things turning around for Europe and Russia before Pearl Harbor. Battle of Britain was won and Moscow was defended, but otherwise they certainly weren’t out of the Bush yet.

Bush 4) I don’t have enough information on US troops fighting abilities in WWII. Comparing to whom? Brits? Russians? Bush Administration? US troops certainly won a lot more battles then they lost, if that can be taken as any indication of their fighting abilities.

Bush 5) As far as European perspective: in USSR it was common propaganda that Russians won WW2 all by themselves, Americans can’t fight, what British military?, US wants to start WW3, innocent Russian people don’t want WW3, USSR will win WW3 hands down, Peace to the World and no BUSH!

  • American bombing did squat. German production was at an all time high 1944-45. Most use that the US did in the WW2 was to produce trucks for the Russians. All the best German troops were assigned to the eastern front and almost all of their armor. A single battle in Russia produced 24.000 casualties and hundreds of lost armor. A big battle over GB involve a couple of hundred planes and most everyone survived.
    Mean US casualties were 1/13. The danish Waffen SS unit lost 82% of its manpower during the war and morale was high throughout the war. Waffen SS were used almost exclusively on the Eastern Front.

  • Japan was a third world country at the time, incapable of producing decent ships or armor. They flew mechanised kites known as Zero’s very well but thats about it. Most used bolt action rifles. The only real military victory Japan won in the WW2 was to keep the Russians on their toes on the Pacific side. Russians kept 1/4 - 1/5 of their troops on the eastern border waiting for Japan to invade.

  • Even with the fall of Moscow, Russia was in no danger. Most of their production had moved to the Ural anyway.

1-2) Russia would have won Germany singlehandedly. Germany didnt commit to the war fully until 1944. German housewifes were living in relative luxury throughout the war. Germany fought well but lost their support in Ukraine and the Baltic region and a good number of other countries where they might have been able to recruit better than they did.

Russia fought scratching, bleeding and biting to the end. They had the best machine guns, tanks, Katuysha and even decent planes. They had an unlimited amount of Zealous soldiers and no army was going to stand in their way during that time.

  1. Germany was loosing fast when the US entered the war. Yes the US came in for the kill.

  2. American troops where not as motivated as most other troops. Other troops were fighting for their homeland/lives while American troops didnt feel the same commitment. It is understandable that they didnt fight as hard as many other armies did.

  • In my view, Europe owns the US nothing for their participation in the WW2. America fought for American interests in the WW2. The Marshall plan is a different venture all together. I tip my hat to ppl who see the benefit of helping their fellow man get their bearings back.
    Sry OT: I think a modern day Marshall plan to get secular semi democratic countries up to speed is the ticket out of the WoT.

YourOldBuddy, how much higher would have German production been, if not for the efforts of the American and British bombing campaign? Not to mention the nearly one million people that Germany assigned to the various AAA and related units. That’s a helluva lot of 88’s that could have been pointing at T-34s!

As for how well Russia would have done without foreign aid…If we are talking about no aid whatsoever, I find it hard to believe that they would have won, much less survived. It isn’t the weapons we sent them that were so important, but the sundry supplies (communications wires, winter clothing, aviation fuel, etc), that there own industry couldn’t make of sufficient quality or quantity. Also, the mere threat Western intervention kept a large armor force in the west (and south, in Italy, later). The bombing campaign not only damaged production, but also lines of communication, and siphoned off troops, as mentioned above.

T-34’s were great, but the Panther series was better. If the Germans were able to produce more (courtesy of bombing, they could not), and supply them better (courtesy of bombing, they could not), who knows?

Great thread, and let me recommend Why the Allies Won, by Richard Overy. Goes into some great detail regarding the effects of the bombing campaign, as well as aid provided to Russia.

This is a interesting topic. My first comment will be that it may appear from what I write below that I have forgotten the OP and am talking more about Russia vs Germany then the US. I havent forgotten but am addressing this aspect because it appears to me from reading this thread that several posters have a fundamentally distorted picture of the war in Russia and this in turn distorts their understanding of America’s role. You would think from reading some comments above that the Germans almost took Moscow several times and Russia was kept afloat only on a sea of western assistance, which is very far from the truth. The reality is that the Germans bit off more then they could chew and were bled white in Russia. By the time the US/Brits/Canadians got to grips with the Wehrmacht in 1944 it was a shadow of its former self.

In my view the war in Europe was won before the United States entered it, and had been lost by the Germans no later then about October 1941. There was obviously a lot of fighting and dying that remained from that point but the crucial decisions and outcomes that decided the war in Europe had occurred by that time, specifically the failure to defeat Russia.

The war could perhaps have been won by Germany before she invaded Russia but once the invasion had occurred the decisive theatre was the east. That’s where the war was won and where it was lost. Germany did not have the manpower or the economic resources to win a sustained war against Russia and so a victory for her depended upon a knockout blow. And this, despite enormous initial successes in 1941 she just couldnt pull off. Russian resistance was too strong and German resources too limited. This initial ‘easy’ period of the war in the east cost the Germans some 900,000 casualties far more then they had suffered in the entire war up to that point.

When the Germans resumed their offensive in Russia in May 1942 they were no longer strong enough to attack along the whole front as they had in 1942 and attacked only in the southern sector. Before they did this they had to strip most of the divisions in central and northern Russia of such motor transport as they had in order to replenish the southern divisions before they were capable of offensive operations. This has been called ‘progressive de-modernisation’ and was a trend that continued throughout the war. The Wehrmacht got less and less mobile and more reliant on horse-drawn transport as the war progressed, at the same time it also possessed less and less artillery support. The overall trend was that German infantry divisions which were once a significant offensive factor in their own right became increasingly capable of only defensive operations and German offensive might was largely contained to the core of armoured and motorised divisions. The basic problems were that there were too few Germans and that German industry was incapable of making up all the losses in the east. By July 1943 they were no longer strong enough to attack even along the southern sector and just attacked a ‘bulge’ in the southern front, at Kursk and lost spectacularly. After July 1943 they had permanently lost the initiative in Russia and fought a losing defensive campaign for the rest of the war.

I’ll dig up the exact figures when I get home about the relative ‘weights’ of each theatre but a couple of figures are worth mentioning. In one calculation the amount of time German combat units spent fighting was divided into what were called ‘combat months’. The Wehrmacht spent something like 6 times as many combat months on the Russian front as compared to the Western. The overwhelming majority of all German casualties were on the Russian front and even at the peak of fighting in the west in 1944-45 about 60% of German forces were still in the east. Point being this was the most important front, most Germans that fought, fought there, and most germans that died, died there, killed by Russians not Americans or anyone else.

Lend lease isnt that significant despite RickJays claim to the contrary. Apart from the crude quantities another crucial factor is timing. By far the biggest proportion of it arrived in Russia in the post-Kursk period by which time the Soviet Union was not only well past its danger period but had already broken the back of the Wehrmacht. Compared to total Soviet production lend-lease is a small factor. The chief import of lendlease was in the provision of soft transport (400-500 thousand vehicles) which was useful in the last year of the war when most of it arrived and which allowed the Red Army to keep its offensives running for longer then they otherwise could before they would have petered out due to limited mobility. It was also useful in supplying food and aviation fuel. Deprived of this assistance the Soviet Union would doubtless have been forced to divert more resources to producing these items themselves other then armaments in which regard its important to note that the Soviet Union was at this time an industrial giant that by itself was massively outproducing Germany. The notion that the Soviet Union was only kept afloat by western aid is not to put too fine a point on it gibberish.

David M Glantz who in my view is the foremost authority now writing on the war in the east wrote in ‘Clash of Titans’ (a worthy book) that in his opinion that Russia by itself would have taken perhaps another year to defeat Nazi Germany, but the outcome was plain. He also illustrates well the relative importance of the east vs west. In July 1943 for instance the British and Americans in their sole land combat vs Germany of that time chased a grand total of 60,000 Germans off Sicily. Meanwhile two and a half-million men fought at Kursk in the biggest tank battle in history.

American fighting ability. I’d say it was essentially on par with Britain though American leadership on my readings appears to have often been more aggressive then the British who had memories of WW1 haunting their consciousness and a consequent caution to prevent casualties.

In my view, its crudely accurate to say that Russia defeated Germany and America defeated Japan, although in both cases the assistance of allies brought about the outcome quicker then would have been achieved alone.

Final comment in response to December who posits his opinion that without the expectation of US economic aid he doubts Stalin would ever have split from Hitler. This is quite bizarre. The split was caused by 3 million armed men crossing his border, expectations of US anything had nothing to do with it.

Strategic bombing was nowhere near as effective as it was hoped it would be, but the effects were hardly squat. German aircraft production peaked in 1944, but pilot quality was at an all time low due to lack of fuel for training (an effect of strategic bombing) and horrific losses of pilots and planes fighting the strategic bombing. The Waffen SS covers a lot of turf, not all of it the premiere formations. By the end of the war over 1,000,000 men had served in the Waffen SS including Albanians, Hungarians, Rumanians and of all things Russians – i.e. Slavs, the untermenchen in Nazi ideology. The premiere units were hardly used almost exclusively in the East – the 1st, 2nd, 9th, 10th and 12th SS Panzer and 17th SS PanzerGrenadier Divisions all fought at Normandy.

Japanese ships were among the best in the world at the time, using the most effective torpedoes and the best night vision equipment to be had and their crews were highly trained, particularly in night operations. The Zero was arguably the best fighter in the world at the time, the Kate was a far more effective carrier based torpedo bomber than any of its competitors, and the twin engined Betty provided a long ranged naval strike capability that no other nation possessed. The failing of Japanese aviation was the inability to produce more effective models as the war dragged on. Bolt action rifles describes every nation that fought in World War II with the exception of the US. Russia kept a very small force facing Manchuria; they knew the Japanese weren’t going to invade.

The loss of Moscow wouldn’t have been fatal but it was 1) a major population center and 2) a major rail hub.

**
Russia might have won single-handedly, but Germany was fully committed prior to 1944. Speer went to work at expanding German war output in 1942. Germany never had any chance of truly effective recruiting in the Ukraine or much of the East, Nazi ideology got in the way. Most ‘recruiting’ was done involuntarily. While on paper Russian tanks are impressive, they weren’t without their flaws. The T-34 initially had a two-man turret with the commander doubling as the loader, a highly ineffective arrangement. The lack of radios meant that some Soviet tanks were still using signal flags to communicate with each other during the battle of Berlin. Some of zealousness had to do with the commissar behind them with the submachine gun and the fear of winding up in a penal battalion. Russian manpower reserves weren’t endless, even they were running into manpower shortages by the end of the war.

Complete BS. The US fully entered the war with Germany on Dec 10th, 1941 when the Germans were still at the gates of Moscow. Prior to this, the US navy was actively escorting British convoys, depth charging U-boats and had a couple of destroyers torpedoed.

Ack. I meant ‘When Titans Clashed’ of course, not the B grade film ‘Clash of Titans’ that apparently dwells yet in my sub-conscious. I plead simple incompetence

:wally

That about nails it for me…

Also a point to be taken into consideration, when the magic word ‘Liberation’ is used, is that a lot of the European population wasn’t that keen on being liberated. Espescially when it involved bombing the crap out of those cities to be liberated.

Most countries had adjusted to the say ‘New Order’ quite well.
Resistance movements in western Europe have been largely exagerated, after the war, IMHO.
To take the Netherlands, where the myth of resistance is quite alive, there were in total about 3.000 people in the resistance.
That’s including those that slipped into an overall and put on a brassard, when Allied tanks were just around the corner.
There were about 23.000 serving with the German armed forces.
That’s excluding merchant shipping, police, military police, and even the local fascist movement (NSB).

Of course the majority of people in the west was glad to be rid of the Germans, When the moment did arrive, there was genuine dancing in the streets. But the collaboration part of history has always been very downplayed and hushed up.

Absolute nonsense. Allied (it wasn’t just American) bombing had a HUGE impact on Germany - if it didn’t, why did Germany try to stop it? I mean, if it was having no impact, it was pretty stupid of them to devote thousands of planes, pilots, a quarter of their artillery shells, aviation fuel, and God knows what else to preventing the bombing.

Even if we were to make the absurd assumption that German production was not harmed by bombing, just the effort Germany put into trying to stop bombing had an enormous draining effect. The Luftwaffe was annihilated by it, losing at one point 100-200 fighters every week. Artillery production devoted to the production of guns and shells for antiaircraft use reached 25% of all production at one point. I would say the destruction of the Luftwaffe was a fairly significant contribution.

But even then, saying it didn’t harm German production is silly. Of course it did; the fact that German production managed to rise doesn’t change the fact that it likely would have risen far MORE without bombing.

Most German troops used bolt action rifles. So?

The Japanese were a hell of a tough opponent. The Zero was one of the fastest fighters of its time, was certainly the most maneuverable and easiest to fly, and was armed with 20mm cannons, and Japanese ships were plenty good; by what possible standard you could claim their ships were inferior I cannot imagine. Japan was not a “Third world country,” and armor had very little influence on the Pacific war anyway.

Total fantasy. By what possible standard could anyone say Germany was “loosing” on Dec. 7, 1941?

Show me some evidence American troops did not “fight as hard” as other troops. I don’t notice that they surrendered in the millions like Soviet troops - does that prove Soviet troops didn’t “fight hard”?

Germany more or less moved their production underground as the bombing increased. You quote Speer yet you fail to make his point about allied bombing being completely useless except for hardening the resolve of Germans and killing civilians (such as Dresden).

Carriers ruled the Pacific and what you are describing was at the time outdated.

I already gave them credit for their flying ability but without carriers it was useless. Japan didnt have the raw materials to produce decent carriers. It was a 3rd world country.

[QUOTE]
Russia kept a very small force facing Manchuria; they knew the Japanese weren’t going to invade.[/QOUTE]The Russians never knew that the Japanese werent going to invade. They kept a large percentage of their troops ready at the pacific rim.

Speer pleaded with Hitler repeadedly to expand war effort but Hitler was a veteran of the WW1 and in his view the WW1 was lost because of war wearyness at home, not on the Battlefield. He did not want to make life miserable in Germany to keep from that happening (again).

Not true. Germany did recruit in the Balkans and would have been much more effective had they not been so heavy handed. Anti Semitism ran high in the Balkans and many German commanders saw great potential in other countries such as Ukraine, Croatia and Hungary. Your view is not the same as the Germans had at the time. I think they were in a better position to judge.

The T34 was the best because of its simplicity, mobility and cheapess. Russians were able to out manufacture the Germans because of this.

The US fully entered the war by escorting British convoys? Dood you just made my point.

No, no. We entered the war because of Pearl Harbor on Dec 10th. Previous to that, we were in a de facto naval conflict with the Germans, though.

I believe that if we had not entered the war with that escorting and had not supplied the Brits and Russians even at that early date… it would have been bad. Don’t forget the Flying Tigers, either. Not that they were any great thing, but it was a quasi-governmental effort earlier in the war than commonly considered.

Nonsense. The Japanese Long Lance torpedos were qualitatively superior to every other design in the world and they were hardly outmoded, any more than torpedos are outmoded today. In the early stages in the war in particular, they were deadly. It was only with the development of better coordinated radar gunnery by the U.S. navy a little later into the conflict that the Japanese surface threat in night battles receeded ( even then it never disappeared.

Also nonsense. The fact that they lacked the industrial capacity to keep up with the U.S. hardly places them in the “third world” category. They had the third-largest navy in the world, with a number of good designs, every bit the equal of the west ( including the fastest and longest-range submarine designs in the world ). Their carriers were perfectly decent ( indeed they built the very first from-the-keel-up design ), if not the equal of the best U.S. vessels.

Where the Japanese failed was in certain facets of operational doctrine ( especially their use of submarines ) and, as mentioned, sheer industrial capacity. But there technical capacity was overall as good as anybody and their industrial weaknesses were only apparent when dealing with the U.S. juggernaut.

  • Tamerlane

In July of 1938 on his 75th birthday Henry Ford received the highest medal of honor that can be given to a non-German. Hitler was in power then. Henry Ford donated money to the NAZI party and helped Hitler come to power. see:

WHO FINANCED HITLER by James Pool

They don’t put that in our history books. I wonder why?

Dal Timgar

And how does that relate to the OP?

**YourOldBuddy **: Speer didn’t describe the Allied bombing campaign as useless, in fact he faulted it for failing to carry through on targets that could have crippled the German war effort such as ball bearings, the synthetic fuel industry and the Rhine dams. I’d also point out that Speer’s memoirs are enormously self serving, laying the blame for every German failure during the war squarely on Hitler’s lap. The reason the Germans were so heavy handed in the East was because of Nazi ideology. Recruitment in the East would have been vastly more effective if this wasn’t the case, but if it wasn’t the case then there would have been no war to begin with. Even in the Baltic states a lot of recruitment was done through conscription and the million or so hiwis (former Russian POWs) who fought in the German army were almost entirely impressed into service. Such ‘volunteers’ as there were joined up because the other option they faced was starvation in a POW camp. Russian tanks were very impressive, but Russian mobile formations almost always came out on the losing end against German mobile forces during 1941-42, a time when German tanks were on paper vastly inferior to Russian tanks to the point that the T-34 and KV series were impervious to virtually all German anti-tank weapons across their front angle.

Carriers did in fact not entirely rule the Pacific for a large part of the war. From late 1942 until mid 1944 there were in fact no carrier vs. carrier battles but there were a large number of surface engagements fought almost exclusively at night. Savo Island, Tassafaranga, Empress Augusta Bay, the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal I and II, etc. The final major naval battle of the war, Leyte Gulf, in fact involved more surface engagements than carrier strikes. Japan possessed the best carrier force in the world at the time of Pearl Harbor, in terms of numbers of carriers, numbers of embarked planes and quality of planes and pilots. The US swamped Japanese production, but describing Japan as a third world nation is ludicrous. Finally, I fail to see how pointing out US involvement in the war prior to full scale involvement proves your point that the US entered the war when as you say ‘Germany was loosing[sic] fast’. The US was involved in limited hostilities in the summer of 1941, and full scale hostilities from December 10th 1941. Germany surrendered on May 8, 1945.

Eolbo: Excellent post, I by and large agree completely. My only reservations are about how much of an offsetting effect lend-lease had on Russia’s war effort. Most of what was provided was not in fact needed by the USSR. The trucks were useful, but the lack of them would only have meant slower offensive operations. Russia proved more than capable of conducting deep mobile operations without them during late 1941 and early 1942; the primary failing was overextending themselves prior to the spring rains and inferiority in mobile operations vis a vis the Germans. More truck would have been some help, but with the depth of the mud come spring, they wouldn’t have been a complete solution. The tanks and planes were largely unneeded and served largely in second line roles during the war due to their inferiority to Soviet models, particularly the tanks. In fact with the sheer number of tanks provided and their paucity in use on the Eastern front, I’ve always wondered if a large number of them didn’t spend the war rusting somewhere.

The food wasn’t necessary, the oil wasn’t necessary, the steel, the railroad cars, the medicine – they all weren’t necessary, but they did have a powerful offsetting effect in that all the manpower and industry that would have been needed for Russia to provide these thing on their own could be devoted to producing war materials and warm bodies for the army. I’m largely of the opinion that Russia could have done it on its own and won, though. Since book recommendation of the are being brought out, I’d highly recommend Earl F. Ziemke’s two volumes, Moscow to Stalingrad and Stalingrad to Berlin

Hey some of us non Big 3 countries, who fought just as hard and were involved in both theatres of operation, might take offense to this.
Actually there are many “minor countries” who pitched in to help and even put in great effort compared to their population size and available resources. Austrailia, India, Canada, the former African Colonies sent their people as well. Yet once again we aren’t even given the courtesy of an Also Ran title…
Feh.

I always feel bad for the Poles more than anyone else. They were providing the 4th or 5th largest number of troops against Germany at the end of the war - in exile no less - but that’s largely forgotten.

Except, as we have already shown, you miss the total point. We have absolute iron-clad proof that germany spent a huge portion of its energy trying to defend from those attacks. Sure, bombing never crippled a whole industry totally. But that damage added up and really paved the way for future invasion.

If you ever say this again I will slap you. I have NEVER seen anyone state a fact that has so little point behind it. We just described the Zero as being on the best fighitng planes of WWII, and you provide the lack of carriers as a reason Japan was no threat? Japan ha great carriers, but the US Navy never let up and wouldn’t give 'em slack to make any more.

I retract my statment above and restate it HERE. Japan was a friggin world power! It was one of the mightiest nations on the earth! They made great carriers! They made multiple great carriers! The leadership was, however, dumb enough to sneak attack the US and not finish the job. The whole point of the war was to finally expand their economic power fully and take those resources they needed to

Once agin you miss the point. The Germans COULD have gotten many troops. However, their own asinin policies got in the way. Eventually, their own brutality came back to haunt them. When they had a chance to win the loyalty of the people they’d taken from Russia, the Germans usually spat in their faces.

You never learned reading comprehension? Dood you just made my point.

(Skipped the T-34 question since I’m not very knowledgable about Russian tanks.)

Primarily because Ford’s politics had very little, if any, impact on how the world developed. His economic contributions were substantial. History texts are not a celebrity rag. Likewise, you don’t see much more than a passing footnote about Lindburg’s politics, if even so much about Lindburg, because he didn’t really affect history much, except in the popular sense. Regardless, its ahrdlky a secret or anything. Do you think your politics will be recorded 100 years from now? Stars and bars, half the presidents won’t be remembered 100 years from now!

Poland. I’m not quite sure how they did it, officially they were destroyed. But there were definitely Polish troops fighting in France and later some became fighter pilots for the RAF, while others became Allied intelligence centers behind enemy lines. (Sourced from WWII reference books here.) They were seriously pissed off. If someone tells me they were flying sorties against the Japanese in the Pacific I’ll believe it.

Finland. Russia began it’s offensive by deciding to subdue Finland. The Finns were ridiculously outgunned and outmanned, but better trained and led. And Russian troops were expecting to be greeted with celebration, not with hostility. It was an expensive and embarrassing victory, and made for a complete overhaul of the Russian military which was beneficial later against the Nazis.

those are the two besides Canada and Austrailia that stick out in my mind, I’ll try to find some others.

The Free French and Polish were particularly active as pilots in the RAF.