# WWII German Aircraft Carriers **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 7, 2011, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763 "2011-03-07T09:03:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/21 "2011-03-08T13:07:37Z")
> [@kombatminipig](#): > > I would say that the Japanese had a pretty firm understanding of the concept in [1941](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse). > > Carriers didn’t initially trump the use of battleships, and being able to bring large guns to bear has its uses. Each ship type can trump the other when in its natural element, a carrier would be torn to shreds when in range of a battleship’s guns. When the Yamato was being built, Japan still had a large carrier fleet with trained and competent pilots which could provide air cover for the heavy hitters. > > Think about it, which would you prefer: a mixed fleet with carriers providing air cover and reco, with artillery doing the drudge work, or a pure carrier fleet having to use some of its pilots to perform offensive operations? > > Had the Yamato had air cover, sinking her would not have been a trivial task. That is the point: a battleship or heavy cruiser could not even get within gun range of an aircraft carrier-the planes would attack and sink the big gun ships. There was NO defense against high speed dive bombing-the most heavily equipped ships (for AA gns) stood no chance at all ---
**Author:** ![kombatminipig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5ac83/32.png) [@kombatminipig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kombatminipig)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/22 "2011-03-08T13:48:13Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > That is the point: a battleship or heavy cruiser could not even get within gun range of an aircraft carrier-the planes would attack and sink the big gun ships. > There was NO defense against high speed dive bombing-the most heavily equipped ships (for AA gns) stood no chance at all Except effective air cover, of course. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/23 "2011-03-08T14:04:01Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > That is the point: a battleship or heavy cruiser could not even get within gun range of an aircraft carrier-the planes would attack and sink the big gun ships. > There was NO defense against high speed dive bombing-the most heavily equipped ships (for AA gns) stood no chance at all > **[Escort carrier | Battle off Samar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escort_carrier#Battle_off_Samar)** > > A battle in which escort carriers played a major role was the Battle off Samar in the Philippines on 25 October 1944. The Japanese lured Admiral William Halsey, Jr. into chasing a decoy fleet with his powerful 3rd Fleet. This left about 450 aircraft from 16 small and slow escort carriers in three task units ("Taffies"), armed primarily to bomb ground forces, and their protective screen of destroyers and slower destroyer escorts to protect undefended troop and supply ships in Leyte Gulf. No Japane... Kind of both makes your point and doesn’t. 🙂 A pretty interesting battle. I once read a book about it, back in the 70s, but I can’t find it now. Might have been a chapter or two of a larger book. Had lots of quotes and some wild pics. Anyone here maybe remember it too? ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/24 "2011-03-08T14:19:38Z")
> [@kombatminipig](#): > > Think about it, which would you prefer: a mixed fleet with carriers providing air cover and reco, with artillery doing the drudge work, or a pure carrier fleet having to use some of its pilots to perform offensive operations? I’d definitely swap every battleship for an aircraft carrier. The Bismark was crippled by an attack from a handful of biplanes. Battleships simply couldn’t get close enough to competantly handled carriers to do any damage. ---
**Author:** ![abel29a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@abel29a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel29a)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/25 "2011-03-08T15:44:51Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I’d definitely swap every battleship for an aircraft carrier. The Bismark was crippled by an attack from a handful of biplanes. > > Battleships simply couldn’t get close enough to competantly handled carriers to do any damage. Indeed, although [incompetently handled carriers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Glorious) were a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/26 "2011-03-08T16:12:13Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > A pretty interesting battle. I once read a book about it, back in the 70s, but I can’t find it now. Might have been a chapter or two of a larger book. Had lots of quotes and some wild pics. Anyone here maybe remember it too? A great recent book about the Battle off Samar is James D. Hornfischer’s “The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors.” ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/27 "2011-03-08T16:52:12Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > The various navy treaties between WWI and WWII regulated battleships, but not aircraft carriers. I agree with the rest of your post, but this is an error. The Washington Naval Treaty (1922) did limit the signatories carriers in terms of total tonnage, and size of the ships. Articles 7 thru 10 specifically put limits on carriers. > **[CONFERENCE ON THE LIMITATION OF ARMAMENT, 1922.](http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pre-war/1922/nav_lim.html)** In the London Naval Treaty (1930), articles 3 through 5 again directly specify carrier limitations and definitions. > **[International Treaty for the Limitation and Reduction of Naval Armament](http://www.microworks.net/pacific/road_to_war/london_treaty.htm)** ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/28 "2011-03-08T17:20:06Z")
> [@abel29a](#): > > Indeed, although [incompetently handled carriers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Glorious) were a different matter. Yes, that’s the one I was thinking of, the only fleet carrier to be sunk by gunfire. It was flying no aircraft at the time, had none prepared for a quick take off, had no spotter in the crows nest, and was running with many of it’s boilers shut down, so it could not quickly produce full power and reach maximum speed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/29 "2011-03-08T17:29:51Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I agree with the rest of your post, but this is an error. > > The Washington Naval Treaty (1922) did limit the signatories carriers in terms of total tonnage, and size of the ships. Articles 7 thru 10 specifically put limits on carriers. > > [CONFERENCE ON THE LIMITATION OF ARMAMENT, 1922.](http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pre-war/1922/nav_lim.html) > > In the London Naval Treaty (1930), articles 3 through 5 again directly specify carrier limitations and definitions. > > [International Treaty for the Limitation and Reduction of Naval Armament](http://www.microworks.net/pacific/road_to_war/london_treaty.htm) Nice catch. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/30 "2011-03-08T18:01:18Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > Even the Japanese didn’t understand this. Despite the Japanese’s success at Peal Harbor with an aircraft carrier mounted attack, the Japanese went on to build the biggest battleship ever, the [Yamato](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Yamato). The Yamato was well on its way to becoming fully commissioned at the time of PH, tho that and the subsequent 1942 carrier battles did lead to the cancellation of the American Montana-class and British Lion-class BB’s. > [@ralph124c](#): > > That is the point: a battleship or heavy cruiser could not even get within gun range of an aircraft carrier-the planes would attack and sink the big gun ships. > There was NO defense against high speed dive bombing-the most heavily equipped ships (for AA gns) stood no chance at all Incorrect, the Americans got a lot of mileage out of their proximity-fused five inch shells for their secondary batteries-so much so that the Japanese eventuallu realized that attempting to bomb (dive- or torpedo-) an American ship with their fearsome AA batteries was suicide, thus leading to the formation and use of Kamikazies (where it wasn’t expected that you would try to return to base after unleashing your payload). ---
**Author:** ![kombatminipig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5ac83/32.png) [@kombatminipig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kombatminipig)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/31 "2011-03-08T20:50:27Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I’d definitely swap every battleship for an aircraft carrier. The Bismark was crippled by an attack from a handful of biplanes. > > Battleships simply couldn’t get close enough to competantly handled carriers to do any damage. After reading up on the battle of Samar I’m ready to hand you your point. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/32 "2011-03-09T01:26:20Z")
> [@Ispolkom](#): > > A great recent book about the Battle off Samar is James D. Hornfischer’s “The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors.” Thanks! Looks like a good one. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/33 "2011-03-11T04:39:23Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > The Yamato was well on its way to becoming fully commissioned at the time of PH, tho that and the subsequent 1942 carrier battles did lead to the cancellation of the American Montana-class and British Lion-class BB’s. Also the conversion of the third _Yamato_-class to a [carrier](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Shinano). ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/34 "2011-03-11T15:33:44Z")
And only gave it enough hangar room to operate about 40 planes. By way of comparison, the Midway class CVs which the US commissioned after the war were about the same tonnage as the Shinano, but could operate over 100 planes. Of course by 1945 the Shinano would be/was just another doomed target for something. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/35 "2011-03-12T00:07:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > German carriers would have to navigate the English Channel, where they’d have been sitting ducks for British land-based aircraft, or gone the long way around Scotland, with the attendant risk of running into the bulk of the Royal Navy Germany itself claimed four Royal Navy carriers from the North Sea through to the Mediterranean, none of them through the use of air power (HMS, [Courageous](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Courageous_(50)#Second_World_War_and_sinking), [Glorious](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Glorious#The_Sinking), [Ark Royal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ark_Royal_(91)#Final_voyage_and_sinking) and [Eagle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Eagle_(1918)#Role_in_the_Battle_of_Malta).) ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/36 "2011-03-12T06:03:05Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Incorrect, the Americans got a lot of mileage out of their proximity-fused five inch shells for their secondary batteries-so much so that the Japanese eventuallu realized that attempting to bomb (dive- or torpedo-) an American ship with their fearsome AA batteries was suicide, thus leading to the formation and use of Kamikazies (where it wasn’t expected that you would try to return to base after unleashing your payload). From what I understand, the style of gun turret most people think of, the little bulb on top of the ship that pivots back and forth while the guns go up and down, became popular for the smaller weapons because of this. Before that, the smaller guns tended to be mounted in the side of the ship with limited ability to elevate, since they were only needed to fending off smaller craft like torpedo boats. You’d only need the higher elevation for ships that were still well within the engagement envelope of the bigger guns anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/37 "2017-04-30T02:53:47Z")
Bumped. For those craving some _Graf Zeppelin_ stuff: [http://www.militaryissue.com/The-German-Aircraft-Carrier-Graf-Zeppelin/productinfo/702418/](http://www.militaryissue.com/The-German-Aircraft-Carrier-Graf-Zeppelin/productinfo/702418/) [http://www.militaryissue.com/DKM-Graf-Zeppelin-Aircraft-Carrier-1\_350-Kit/productinfo/702224/](http://www.militaryissue.com/DKM-Graf-Zeppelin-Aircraft-Carrier-1_350-Kit/productinfo/702224/) ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/38 "2017-04-30T14:45:17Z")
I was going to comment on some things in the thread but then I saw it’s a zombie. A correction about the Yamato. It had already been laid down well before Pearl Harbor and participated in the Midway operation, although it didn’t fight in the battle itself. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/39 "2017-04-30T16:26:06Z")
Speaking of raising the dead,\* Yamato \*(not yet a space battleship) was launched in August of 1940, but not commissioned until 16 December 1941. Generally speaking, ships have a shakedown period between being launched and actually entering service, where the crew is trained in the ship’s operation and basically figures out what’s already broken (ships are very big, complicated things, there are bound to be unforeseen issues for them to smoke out and fix). Take the ship out to sea, sail it around a bit, see what breaks off, take it back into port to get fixed before it’s ready for action. Bad things tend to happen when you try to put a ship into battle before doing the shakedown period. The middle of a battle is a hell of a time to figure out you have a defective power distribution system or a sticky watertight door. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763/40 "2020-08-15T16:17:31Z")
Bumped. I just read _The German Aircraft Carrier Graf Zeppelin: Super Drawings in 3D_ by Stefan Draminski (linked in post 36 above). Beautifully realistic computer-generated images of the carrier as she would have looked upon completion, with her flight deck full of planes, and some line drawings. No cutaway views, though, and the text reads like it was run through Google Translate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-german-aircraft-carriers/573763.md?page=3)