# WWII - German's killing of undesirables - morbid and sensitive, but an honest question/debate topic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2011, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533 "2011-06-23T05:48:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jk1245](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/49beb7/32.png) [@jk1245](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jk1245)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/21 "2011-06-23T18:20:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I was thinking more of the waste of resources like bullets, or gasoline (when they tried killing with truck exhaust) and Zyklon B. As well as wasting time - killing Jews (and gays and Jehovah’s Witnesses and Roma and retarded people and whatnot) instead of concentrating on conquering Russia or Great Britain. I am sure they could have found a better use for concentration camp personnel than killing Anne Frank. > > Regards, > Shodan Well sure if you want to get all rational and non-evil about it. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/22 "2011-06-23T18:29:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Six million bodies? That’s a big-ass mine shaft. > > Regards, > Shodan Eleven million. The people you mentioned previously came with bodies as well. ---
**Author:** ![Zany\_Zeolite\_Zipper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zany\_Zeolite\_Zipper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zany_Zeolite_Zipper)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/23 "2011-06-23T21:48:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Six million bodies? That’s a big-ass mine shaft. > > Regards, > Shodan Not really. Lets assume an 80 kg human (175 libs) with a SG of 1. This is 0.080 m3, but lets assume a packing efficiency for humans of 0.80; humans are roughly sandbag shaped, so I think the packing efficiency would be better. The bodies will be tossed in there randomly which would tend to reduce the packing efficiency over sandbags. However, some compaction due to the weight of stacked corpses is to be expected. To my knowledge there has never been a study of the packing efficiency of corpses, so I will continue the discussion with a packing efficiency of 80%. The previously assumed packing efficiency gives an effective human volume of 0.100 m3. By simple multiplication the volume required for sanitary disposal of eleven million humans in a mine shaft is then determined to be 1.1 million cubes. Assuming the ore SG is 3.35 this gives us 3 685 000 kg of ore or 3 685 tonnes of ore. A smallish mine should have no difficulty in producing 5 000 tonnes of ore per **day**. In conclusion, disposal of genocide victims via underground sequestration is a plausible disposal method. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/24 "2011-06-24T00:20:50Z")
> [@Zany\_Zeolite\_Zipper](#): > > Not really. Lets assume an 80 kg human (175 libs) with a SG of 1. This is 0.080 m3, but lets assume a packing efficiency for humans of 0.80; humans are roughly sandbag shaped, so I think the packing efficiency would be better. The bodies will be tossed in there randomly which would tend to reduce the packing efficiency over sandbags. However, some compaction due to the weight of stacked corpses is to be expected. To my knowledge there has never been a study of the packing efficiency of corpses, so I will continue the discussion with a packing efficiency of 80%. The previously assumed packing efficiency gives an effective human volume of 0.100 m3. By simple multiplication the volume required for sanitary disposal of eleven million humans in a mine shaft is then determined to be 1.1 million cubes. Assuming the ore SG is 3.35 this gives us 3 685 000 kg of ore or 3 685 tonnes of ore. A smallish mine should have no difficulty in producing 5 000 tonnes of ore per **day**. In conclusion, disposal of genocide victims via underground sequestration is a plausible disposal method. You’d have to transport tens of thousands without revolt in a secure area. Plus, I think you’re underestimating the size six million mushed bodies make. That’s the populations of LA & Chicago. But if you’re just going from 41 onward, than consider that camps were already in effect, so it’s better to use what you’ve got, no? Plus the ‘relocation’ idea just ‘sounds better’, eh. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/25 "2011-06-24T00:57:22Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > It seems like throwing the bodies down an old mine shaft would be a supremely efficient disposal method. Just drop them into the big hole, and that’s that. Out of sight, out of mind. It wouldn’t be hard to arrange some kind of death chamber right next to the pit. Seems to me even **burial** is superfluous. Just dump them all in a big open space far-and-downwind from any habitation. In a year not even clothes will be left, just a big field of disarticulated bones. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/26 "2011-06-24T01:02:07Z")
You’d have to dig the space, get them there, and prevent escape. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/27 "2011-06-24T01:07:54Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You’d have to dig the space, get them there, and prevent escape. Only if you kill them on-site. Which **would** be more efficient than trucking the corpses out from the camp, of course. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/28 "2011-06-24T01:54:56Z")
ok, ok… I admit the train track example was a bad one. I’m not great on mass murder techniques, so it was one of the two that popped into my head. The other being the abandoned mine/seal them in idea. But yes, trains and the track were both very important to germanys war effort, and I don’t foresee them permitting their trains to get tossed into a ravine with a bunch of undesireables. My original vision would have the engine itself decoupled from the cars it was pulling and once clear of the others, move to a side track, while the track was immediately put back to have the following cars, rolling on gravity and momentum, continue on the death run. Stupid and potentially impossible, I know. But like I said, I’m not good at 2 am to come up with two different mass murdering techniques. Thanks to Marley23 for the Snidely Whiplash reference to throw humor into a very unfunny topic. I concede my bad, foolish idea was very bad and very foolish. So, let’s ditch the train concept. What about a mine shaft, or so other deviously thought out but easily executed plan that would be just as effective. 11-12 million people, innocents, not combat casualties, is a LOT of people to get rid of. > [@Askance](#): > > You seriously think sacrificing whole trains is more economic than gassing people or shooting them with a single bullet each? For a start the Germans needed every train they could spare to move supplies and troops around; even the ones they used to ship the doomed to the death camps were a luxury they couldn’t really afford. > > The Germans never ran out of ammunition in that sense. A belt of machine gun bullets? I mean honestly, they had 3 million soldiers fighting on the eastern front. > > In general: what makes you so sure the methods they used weren’t the best available for the task? Personally, I thought the bullet/gun method worked just fine. I always wondered why they had to go industrial and build the death camps. It would seem much easier to dig a large hole somewhere and fill it with bodies, then toss dirt over the mass grave and begin again. Even easier would be to dump them into the ocean, lake or some body of water, assuming you could get them on a ship. Seeing as the germans did have the science of herding people down to a science, I don’t sense mass revolt in any method they chose. I assume the biggest fear here would be the floating bodies that would expose what they were doing. I don’t know… did the Germans care? I assume the ovens were built to deal with the mass number of bodies, so you may be right in your assessment that these were the best methods available at the time. I never bought the ammo theory much either, but I read that German soldiers were having negative psychological reactions to their shooting of people. Even though this makes perfect sense to me about OTHER people, I never got the impression the German soldier ever felt badly about shooting undesirables. Of course I’m sure I’m wrong, but it’s not the image we’ve been shown. I never knew much about the khmer rouge method, but they dispatched what, 1.4 - 4.8 million? I guess if you aren’t worrying about burying bodies, a smack in the head with a hammer or 2x4 would do the trick, but I don’t know. That is just a huge number of people to kill in this fashion. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/29 "2011-06-24T05:02:31Z")
I think you’re missing a crucial point; the doomed have to believe that there is some hope, _right up to the last second_. If even a substantial fraction believe they’re doomed, then things get messy and chaotic, very quickly. The Holocaust was a unique bit of evil genius. It started by making people wish to move away from their homes and band together in the ghettos. (Safety in numbers) Then, the Nazis worked to make _those_ places feel unsafe. Then, they ordered people to pack their things to be ‘relocated’. The Jews were cautiously optimistic, since \*anywhere is better than here. \* People would boards trains and no one would hear from them. There was propaganda broadcast about how folks had been successfully relocated in places that tolerated Jews. It was all about working that seed of doubt. _Anything_ that went against that bit of doubt threatened the whole operation. Everything depended on that seed of hope. Mines or lakes, of fields of corpses would drive the future victims to seek alliances, make suicidal defenses, publish what was going on, etc. It was critical to the Germans that things proceeded in an orderly, predictable fashion. They perfected a truly evil, efficient system that no one would object to until the very end. It’s a lot like Google. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/30 "2011-06-24T12:55:38Z")
> [@Zany\_Zeolite\_Zipper](#): > > Not really. Lets assume an 80 kg human (175 libs) with a SG of 1. This is 0.080 m3, but lets assume a packing efficiency for humans of 0.80; humans are roughly sandbag shaped, so I think the packing efficiency would be better. The bodies will be tossed in there randomly which would tend to reduce the packing efficiency over sandbags. However, some compaction due to the weight of stacked corpses is to be expected. To my knowledge there has never been a study of the packing efficiency of corpses, so I will continue the discussion with a packing efficiency of 80%. The previously assumed packing efficiency gives an effective human volume of 0.100 m3. By simple multiplication the volume required for sanitary disposal of eleven million humans in a mine shaft is then determined to be 1.1 million cubes. Assuming the ore SG is 3.35 this gives us 3 685 000 kg of ore or 3 685 tonnes of ore. A smallish mine should have no difficulty in producing 5 000 tonnes of ore per **day**. In conclusion, disposal of genocide victims via underground sequestration is a plausible disposal method. John Keegan, in _The Face of Battle_, has pointed out that the traditional heralds’ description of “walls of dead bodies” at the Battle of Agincourt must not be accurate because the Nazi death camps have showed us how difficult it is to stack bodies vertically – they tend to sprawl out in untidy piles, as the horrible images have shown. I too am dubious of your assumptions about packing efficiency. [QUOTE=mac\_bolan00] the khmer rouge stated that clubbing and stabbing were the most economical ways to commit mass murder. [/QUOTE] In a History Channel popular treatment of the Battle of Cannae, one historian wrapped up the part after Hannibal’s troops had encircled the Romans thusly: "And then it’s just a matter of how long it takes to kill 70,000 human beings by hand. \ It turns out to be about six hours." ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/31 "2011-06-24T13:08:36Z")
> [@Zany\_Zeolite\_Zipper](#): > > Not really. Lets assume an 80 kg human (175 libs) with a SG of 1. This is 0.080 m3, but lets assume a packing efficiency for humans of 0.80; humans are roughly sandbag shaped, so I think the packing efficiency would be better. The bodies will be tossed in there randomly which would tend to reduce the packing efficiency over sandbags. However, some compaction due to the weight of stacked corpses is to be expected. To my knowledge there has never been a study of the packing efficiency of corpses, so I will continue the discussion with a packing efficiency of 80%. The previously assumed packing efficiency gives an effective human volume of 0.100 m3. By simple multiplication the volume required for sanitary disposal of eleven million humans in a mine shaft is then determined to be 1.1 million cubes. Assuming the ore SG is 3.35 this gives us 3 685 000 kg of ore or 3 685 tonnes of ore. A smallish mine should have no difficulty in producing 5 000 tonnes of ore per **day**. In conclusion, disposal of genocide victims via underground sequestration is a plausible disposal method. I don’t know whether to be impressed or appalled. Okay, I know this little thought experiment is just a bit of morbid humor, but the disposal aspect of the problem might well have real world applications. It’s not at all impossible that the world might face some Captain Trips-like super plague where we’d need to come up with sanitary ways to dispose of huge numbers of corpses as fast as possible. Wouldn’t it be wise for the governmen to have some such plans in advance? For that matter, does anybody out there in SDMB land know if the government already has such plans? ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/32 "2011-06-24T14:19:23Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > … the doomed have to believe that there is some hope … i realise the OP asked for kills, but supposing if you’re happy to be just rid of them, would it work better to carry on whatever you were doing and leave a safe exit for the refugees to an enemy country while ensuring death to whoever tries to come back? mass banishment means the problem is no longer yours and becomes the enemy’s. (generic yous) ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/33 "2011-06-24T14:57:33Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > mass banishment means the problem is no longer yours and becomes the enemy’s. (generic yous) One country’s problem is another country’s motivated fighter, (or doctor, or factory worker, or nuclear physicist…) ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/34 "2011-06-24T15:19:09Z")
the influx of 10 million refugees might present more problems than benefits? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/35 "2011-06-24T20:36:15Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I don’t know whether to be impressed or appalled. > > Okay, I know this little thought experiment is just a bit of morbid humor, but the disposal aspect of the problem might well have real world applications. It’s not at all impossible that the world might face some Captain Trips-like super plague where we’d need to come up with sanitary ways to dispose of huge numbers of corpses as fast as possible. Wouldn’t it be wise for the governmen to have some such plans in advance? For that matter, does anybody out there in SDMB land know if the government already has such plans? We might finally get to put the Yucca Mountain facility to use. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/36 "2011-06-24T23:41:10Z")
during the mass murders in 1941 in Russia (e.g. very notably in Kiev) people were executed in ravines and buried there. They also initially buried corpses at Treblinka death camp. The switch towards cremation came when they decided the war will be lost and it was time to clean up the evidence. Then they not only started cremating as standard operating procedure after gas chambers (most notably in Auschwitz) but also started digging up and burning corpses previously buried in mass graves. E.g. see here [Babi Yar - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar#Concealment_of_the_crimes) ---
**Author:** ![Zany\_Zeolite\_Zipper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zany\_Zeolite\_Zipper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zany_Zeolite_Zipper)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/37 "2011-06-25T00:25:11Z")
The packing efficiency of M&Ms is 73.5 ([post 8](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=484645)). This gives our 80 kg human an effective volume of 0.109 m3 - woopie. Additionally, 80 kg is the weight of a well fed American, a starved Jewish person would be skinnier. I would expect humans to fit together even better than M&Ms. Like the banana, humans are designed to go together: a hand and arm could be lost twixt another’s nethers, a head could occupy empty space between some jumblies, so lets stop arguing about packing efficiencies. Suppose we reconsider our earlier calculation, but with an effective human volume of 0.109 m3. One TEU (a container ship container) is 39 m3, and so disposal of 11 million bodies would require 30 700 TEUs. This sounds like a lot, but a New Panamax ship contains 12 000 TEU. As a result we would only need 2.6 New Panamax ships to dispose of all of the holocaust victims. Take a look at your local harbour - can you count two or three ships? It is unfortunate that people forget that we are insignificant specs of life, each containing $10 or $12 worth of chemicals available at your local chemist’s shop. We are nothing compared to the awesome power of a fully industrialized and operating economy. To forestall another nit-pick: I am aware that WWII merchant vessels are bathtub toys against a modern container ship. I just think it is neat to imagine how easily the life of myself, my family, and everyone in every city I have ever lived could be snuffed out. All it takes is the uncaring eye of Industry to mistake us for reagents. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/38 "2011-06-25T00:56:04Z")
Jeesuz, people. Have you never seen industrial sized wood chippers in action? Final solution done properly: Walk them into the showers. Floor drops away into smooth chutes that feeds them into the ‘Maw’. Out comes pig food. No farting around with poison gas and you have a ready supply of bacon for the troops from fattening up the pigs. Plus, it is quite a bit quicker. Or, just squeeze out the liquid and the remains can go down the mine shaft or then be burned. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/39 "2011-06-25T02:18:33Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Final solution done properly: > > Walk them into the showers. Floor drops away into smooth chutes that feeds them into the ‘Maw’. Out comes pig food. You still won’t get the job unless you know the secret handshake. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533/40 "2011-06-25T03:17:18Z")
For the truly **efficient** way to do it, see [here.](http://cmkornbluth.bravehost.com/Kornbluth,%20C%20M%20-%20The%20Marching%20Morons.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germans-killing-of-undesirables-morbid-and-sensitive-but-an-honest-question-debate-topic/586533.md?page=3)