# WWII: Germany vs USA, if the USSR lost **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402 "2011-06-14T05:15:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/21 "2011-06-14T18:11:57Z")
I don’t know where the Nazis planned to draw the geographic line, but they were very clear on their plans for Russia. It wasn’t going to exist like Vichy France. A significant percentage of the population would be exterminated directly, others deported, and the rest slowly killed as slave laborers. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/22 "2011-06-14T18:34:51Z")
Why is everybody writing off the UK after a Soviet defeat? The Brits fended off Hitler months before his invasion of Russia. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/23 "2011-06-14T19:00:01Z")
I doubt the Germans could have beaten the USSR but had they, I suspect the US/UK would have won (eventually), mainly because of the foothold of the UK in Europe. The Germans would have had no similar unsinkable ship from which to launch attacks on the US heartland. ---
**Author:** ![Smurfie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@Smurfie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smurfie)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/24 "2011-06-14T19:04:32Z")
If the OP’s scenario had come to pass…it would have been EXTREMELY GALLING for Germany to surrender to the Western Allies in 1947. A replay of WWI where they knocked Russia out of the war and still lost. Germany would really have had no choice. If they insisted on prosecuting the war, Germany would have been a radioactive wasteland. Germany would not have been able to take out England so quickly. Even without U.S. help, German strategists said it would take at least 3 years to pursue a siege strategy. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/25 "2011-06-14T19:09:29Z")
I, too, am curious as to why it seems to be assumed that the United Kingdom was part of the USSR. Really, the question was answered be Der Trihs; Germany gets nuked in 1945. No matter what hypothetical you come up with on the Eastern Front, in 1945 the United States is going to start producing atomic bombs, and there’s no realistic chance Germany could have invaded England; their tanks did not float. The war is no longer conventional as of August 1945. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/26 "2011-06-14T19:13:20Z")
Would the Rosenburgs have given their atomic secrets to Germany to maintain a world balance of power? … checks the name … perhaps not … but was the Final Solution widely known in the US? As I recall, the discovery of the concentration camps was a bit of a surprise … ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/27 "2011-06-14T20:22:18Z")
The general consensus is that had Hitler attempted Operation Sealion, there would have been a bloody battle, but his forces would have suffered a major defeat which would have included massive losses to his maritime and and his airforce.The air forces lost would have been a serious loss to any future campaign. There is reasonable expectation that such losses would have delayed Barbarossa for at least a year, and quite possibly more.In this time, Russia is far better equipped. By the the earliest time Hitler could have taken Moscow, an invasion of the UK was pretty much impossible, they would not have even made landfall. An attempt would have been so costly as to have some significant effect upon the resources required to maintain a hold on Russian territory, and there is no reason to believe that Russia would have stopped its own resistance once Moscow had been lost. The battle for Moscow would have been extremely costly for Hitler, it would have made Stalingrad seem like a family outing. I really can’t imagine how much further Axis forces could have gone. In summary, UK is still there, Axis forces heavily damaged, needing a lot of recuperation, and involved in an interminable war even further away with even longer lines of communication. It is entirely possible this might have shortened the war. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/28 "2011-06-14T21:15:37Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > In summary, UK is still there Plus, all the scientists the US needs for the Manhattan Project are already in America. So assuming the US does not keep neutral it will be able to bomb Germany before the reverse (from England) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/29 "2011-06-14T21:24:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nuke them into surrender or collapse, most likely. Nazi Germany lasting that long just means they last long enough to get what Japan got. This. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/30 "2011-06-14T21:35:11Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Would the Rosenburgs have given their atomic secrets to Germany to maintain a world balance of power? The Rosenbergs were dedicated Communists and paid spies in the employ of the Soviet Union. (Julius was, anyway.) They weren’t just passing secrets along to whatever random country had a big army. It is also likely the case that the Rosenbergs did not begin passing along nuclear secrets until the latter half of 1944. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/31 "2011-06-14T21:44:59Z")
Did we have bombers that could make a one-way trip to Great Britain? If the Germans got lucky and managed to get their [Type-XXI U-Boat](http://military.discovery.com/technology/vehicles/submarines/submarines-09.html) into service sooner and in substantial numbers it would have been a game changer in the North Atlantic. With a dead USSR they might have been able to manage it. (As it was I think only a couple were actually built and it was far too little too late and they did not amount to anything in terms of helping Germany). No one had ever seen a submarine like this one. It was built to be a submarine rather than a surface ship that occasionally submerged. If they could have managed to get a lot of those in the North Atlantic Great Britain would have been in serious trouble. And if we can’t get atomic bombs to the UK we can’t get them to Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/32 "2011-06-14T21:53:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Did we have bombers that could make a one-way trip to Great Britain? > > And if we can’t get atomic bombs to the UK we can’t get them to Germany. Lots of friendly refueling stops between the US and UK: Canada, Greenland, Iceland and N. Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/33 "2011-06-14T21:55:57Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Lots of friendly refueling stops between the US and UK: Canada, Greenland, Iceland and N. Ireland. N. Ireland = part of the UK. 🙂 And now I must run before **ruadh** and my other compatriots see my treachery ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/34 "2011-06-14T22:10:51Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Lots of friendly refueling stops between the US and UK: Canada, Greenland, Iceland and N. Ireland. I thought for a long time uboats ran amok in the North Atlantic because there was a largish gap where aircraft of the time could not reach. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/35 "2011-06-14T22:15:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I thought for a long time uboats ran amok in the North Atlantic because there was a largish gap where aircraft of the time could not reach. > **[Mid-Atlantic gap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_gap)** > > The Mid-Atlantic gap is a geographical term applied to an undefended area of the Atlantic Ocean during the Battle of the Atlantic in the Second World War. The region was beyond the reach of land-based RAF Coastal Command antisubmarine (A/S) aircraft. This resulted in heavy merchant shipping losses to U-boats. It is frequently known as The Black Pit,\[citation needed\] as well as the Atlantic Gap, Air Gap, Greenland Gap, Black Gap, or just "the Gap". The gap was eventually closed in May 1943, as It seems by '43 that gap was closed. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/36 "2011-06-14T22:29:27Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I thought for a long time uboats ran amok in the North Atlantic because there was a largish gap where aircraft of the time could not reach. By May 1941, the RAF had the kind of aircraft necessary to cover the entire convoy route, just not enough of them to realistically maintain a continuous CAP. A bomber in transit doesn’t need to waste fuel flying over a slow moving convoy. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/37 "2011-06-14T22:30:24Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > [Mid-Atlantic gap - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_gap) > > It seems by '43 that gap was closed. I was thinking about that also- sometime in mid-1943 is when the balance definitively turned in favor of the Allies in the Battle of the Atlantic, which meant that the Allies could build up forces in England in anticipation of an invasion. That was the REAL turning point of the war against Germany in the West; from that point on, it was a matter of time before American industrial might would simply steamroll Germany, one way or another. Atomic weapons may have been the lesser of two evils, if the other choice is a grinding series of seaborne invasions opposed by the majority of the troops who’d have been occupied on the Eastern Front in our timeline. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/38 "2011-06-14T23:36:04Z")
We just nuke them. Once a single nuke falls, the Wehrmacht probably revolts. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/39 "2011-06-14T23:37:36Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Would the Rosenburgs have given their atomic secrets to Germany to maintain a world balance of power? … checks the name … perhaps not … but was the Final Solution widely known in the US? As I recall, the discovery of the concentration camps was a bit of a surprise … Erhm… the Rosenbergs were Jewish. And unless Hitler builds a massive naval fleet that can equal the Anglo-American fleet there is no possibility of an invasion of Britain from the sea. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402/40 "2011-06-14T23:45:27Z")
if germany had the bomb, they could have either plastered russia or bully them into joining the axis. also assume they had sufficient mode of delivery of nukes over the UK, britain would either surrender or cede. then it will be a trans-pacific and trans-atlantic war, meaning it will be impractical unless both sides finally develop the ICBM. by then, hitler would have been long dead, his successors could become more liberal, and a german gorbachev will eventually step in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-germany-vs-usa-if-the-ussr-lost/585402.md?page=3)