# WWII Memorial shutdown controversy **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 4, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354 "2013-10-04T14:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/81 "2013-10-07T12:24:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “A democracy … can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses…” Notwithstanding a certain intuitive appeal to this statement, I struggle to think what could ever falsify it, and so I’d say it’s mostly pseudoscience as far as political analysis goes. Maybe falsifiability is setting too high a bar, but even anecdotally I’m not sure there’s a lot of support for it. I assume we can agree that in our own case democracy hasn’t yet collapsed despite a number of large entitlements. There’s also [evidence](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_reckoning/2012/10/25/blue_state_red_face_guess_who_benefits_more_from_your_taxes.html)that the states currently receiving the most generous net federal benefits are mostly red states, which suggests anecdotally that people may not always (or even usually) vote for the candidate promising the most benefits. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/82 "2013-10-07T12:39:29Z")
> [@knel3030](#): > > Of course prison and law enforcement and military need to be run by a state, but some services like taking care of parks, while still national monuments, could be done as a private business. In exceptional cases where the government fails to fulfil its responsibility, then citizens have to find some way to keep things running through an emergency. Pardon me while I laugh. Nah, don’t pardon my laugh. If you look at the link below, you will see that the NPS budget for 2013 was $2.6 Billion. The estimate for fees to be collected in 2013 was $172 Million. If you think that people will pay 15 times as much for their current park experiences you are sadly mistaken. [http://www.doi.gov/budget/appropriations/2013/highlights/upload/BH071.pdf](http://www.doi.gov/budget/appropriations/2013/highlights/upload/BH071.pdf) The wiki page on the NPS shows a breakdown of the 2010 budget. Only 10.9% of the budget goes to visitor services - the kind of stuff people are willing to pay for. A huge amount of the NPS budget goes to the preservation, restoration, and protection of the resources within the parks. By law, National Parks are some of the most protect lands in the US. Even when the parks are open, there are many restrictions to the types of activities that can be done within the parks, because the underlying purpose of the National Parks isn’t so the public had a cool place to ride an ATV, it is to protect those places in perpetuity. > **[National Park Service](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Park_Service)** > > The National Park Service (NPS) is an agency of the United States federal government, within the US Department of the Interior. The service manages all national parks; most national monuments; and other natural, historical, and recreational properties, with various title designations. The United States Congress created the agency on August 25, 1916, through the National Park Service Organic Act. Its headquarters is in Washington, D.C., within the main headquarters of the Department of th The NP... ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/83 "2013-10-07T12:45:11Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The strategy commonly used is to eliminate services in the most obvious and painful way possible, to push the electorate into voting the money at the next election (as opposed to making cuts to minimize the impact). Thus schools eliminate sports rather than dismiss useless administrators, libraries shut down entirely on weekends rather than rationing new book and media purchases etc. etc. > > Whoever arranged to barricade the WWII memorial was just being more blatant and clueless than public officials usually are in such circumstances. I can believe that this sort of thing happens on at least some occasions. The question I posed to the board is whether there’s any evidence that the barricading of the WWII Memorial was in this instance a deliberate decision of the Obama administration with the intent to maximize the inconvenience of the shutdown–which at this point seems to be the mainstream narrative on the right, as far as I can tell–or if it’s just another example of the dumb unintended consequences that inevitably result when you have to shut down a massive bureaucracy without the luxury of examining the wisdom of every individual decision involved. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/84 "2013-10-07T12:50:51Z")
Honestly, if “the most obvious and painful” service the Obama administration can think of making a show of tanking with the shutdown in order to make the ones responsible look like jerks is a WW2 memorial, they’re pretty damn inept at the exercise. Your narrative is silly, IMO. Jon Stewart pointed out on his show that one effect of the shutdown is that a baby food supplement distribution program may have to be put on hold. **That** ’d be an obvious and painful thing. Meals on wheels, the elderly feeding program, possibly going away ? That’s another obvious, painful thing. Those are actually somewhat essential non-essential services. Why didn’t Obama shut that shit down ? But the Republican spin machine can’t use either, because if they did it’d constitute clamouring for “welfare entitlements”, and that just won’t do. Government employees having to figure out how to live on IOUs - that’s pretty bad, but can’t use that because Big Government is inherently bad too… Dammit, this spinning thing is \*hard \*! So they go with the meaningless “But WORLD WAR VETS might have to delay visiting the memorial for a couple weeks at the most, except they won’t since the issue was speedily addressed GUYS !” instead. Because that’s an urgent life and death matter, evidently :rolleyes: It’s a pretty lame horse to try and ride into battle with, is what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Seydell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Seydell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seydell)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/85 "2013-10-07T13:32:30Z")
There is a named political strategy, [The Washington Monument Strategy,](http://politicaldictionary.com/words/washington-monument-strategy/) where you make sure any cuts are very visible. [Jonathan Bernstein discussed it last February](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/02/19/the-washington-monument-sequester-strategy/) during the sequester mess. I don’t know if any of this is intentional, but I would not be shocked to find out it was. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/86 "2013-10-07T13:42:41Z")
As with most things in Washington, it is a mix of money and politics. Once there was no budget, by law those sites need to close - but both sides are glad to have such visible and convenient places to air their differences. And the politics is not just at the elected official level. You may rest assured that the next time the Director of the NPS testifies before Congress for their budget, he will remind them just how important they said these places are, and how Congress should provide more funding to satisfy the public demand for the National Parks. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/87 "2013-10-07T13:47:56Z")
And it makes sense, in the specific context of Park Services, to use the Washington Monument as leverage if threatened with funding cuts because that’s the nuclear weapon in \*their \*(relatively pitiful, in the grand scheme of things) arsenal. The Obama administration OTOH has the whole gamut of government services to draw from. Why go for the stupid Washington Monument, when with NASA’s doors closed they can go with fricking _Mars_ ? Starving babies & grannies ? Closed schools ? The VA being made even more inefficient leading to dead veterans instead of merely mildly disappointed ones ? No more postage ? No more garbage disposal ? Federal highways restricted to one traffic lane ? And so on, and so forth. Like I said, if their “most obvious and painful” PR cut is the National Mall, they suck at this. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/88 "2013-10-07T14:01:23Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Like I said, if their “most obvious and painful” PR cut is the National Mall, they suck at this. Exactly: the Navy-Air Force football game this weekend wasn’t cancelled, military golf courses have been open continuously, and the Department of Defense is bringing nearly everyone back to work even though they aren’t legally required to do so. If the White House is trying to make this shutdown as painful as possible, the pain that they are inflicting is on the level of having an eyelash get in your eye: it’s definitely annoying, but nobody is going to the hospital over it. In fact, I think the whinging over the Park Service barriers is more painful than the barriers around the monuments. And I ran by the World War II Memorials yesterday, and I’ve got to tell you: not a big fucking deal. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/89 "2013-10-07T15:46:18Z")
It seems to me that the GOP wants it both ways: they want to be able to force their way by shutting down the government, but they don’t want the public to blame them for the shutdown. That’s why they’re whining so much about the visible effects of the shutdown- because if they know that if they don’t shift the blame for those effects over to Obama, the public will hold them responsible. So instead of responsibly \*owning \*the results of their [del]extortion[/del] negotiation tactic, they are instead crying about how Obama is just trying to make them look bad. Basically, they want the power the shutdown gives them, but they think it’s really unfair if they have to experience any of the negative results of that shutdown. It’s childish, really. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/90 "2013-10-07T15:50:56Z")
That’s not entirely fair. I’m pretty sure a good portion of the GOP assumed Obama would back down. And all the theatrics, including PR stunts involving shuttered memorials and parks and such are intended to force his hand. Rather than hoping for a shutdown, they were not only hoping for capitulation but assuming it was _fait accompli_ and didn’t have a Plan B in mind when Obama and Reid stood their ground. And all the blame shifting is a last ditch effort at saving what face they can. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/91 "2013-10-07T15:52:59Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > WWII Memorial shutdown . . . . . . [nontroversy](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nontroversy). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/92 "2013-10-07T16:14:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > That doesn’t sound right. I run by the World War II Memorial fairly often, and I’m pretty sure that rangers are typically there. There’s an office just a few steps south of the memorial that, as far as I know, is staffed during the day with rangers. It’s a monument not a machine that requires an operator. It’s like closing a statue or a highway pull-off to view scenery. What’s next, signs banning photographs? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/93 "2013-10-07T16:20:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s a monument not a machine that requires an operator. It’s like closing a statue or a highway pull-off to view scenery. Rangers also do stuff like keep skateboarders away, stop kids from jumping in fountains, and so on. If you’re going to support closing down the government to further an agenda not supported by the American people, be prepared to live with the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/94 "2013-10-07T16:25:16Z")
Again, I point to the convenience of the sites on the Mall for such a showdown. Take a look at this little blurb from a CNN piece on the World War II Memorial on Oct 1: “Rep. Michele Bachmann of Minnesota, wearing casual clothes, said she was out walking when she heard about the pile-up outside the memorial and decided to hustle over to the site.” And there she was in her fetching jogging outfit. It is only 1.5 miles from the Capitol, and there you have elderly vets being barred from their Monument - I am surprised there wasn’t a ten limo pileup due to all of the Congressionals hustling over. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/95 "2013-10-07T16:29:01Z")
As has been pointed out many times before, yes, all of those things _do_ require “operators” in order to maintain them. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/96 "2013-10-07T16:45:21Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Rangers also do stuff like keep skateboarders away, stop kids from jumping in fountains, and so on. So do the police. They have as much jurisdiction in a public park as the custodians of the park. Now the city may not come out and mow the grass it will send officers if their services are needed. Again, the memorial in question falls in the category of statue and does not require a person to operate it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/97 "2013-10-07T16:47:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So do the police. They have as much jurisdiction in a public park as the custodians of the park. Now the city may not come out and mow the grass it will send officers if their services are needed. > > Again, the memorial in question falls in the category of statue and does not require a person to operate it. Like I said earlier, I ran by the WW2 Memorial twice this weekend (going out and coming back). Would you like to know my observations of the police presence? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/98 "2013-10-07T16:52:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Like I said earlier, I ran by the WW2 Memorial twice this weekend (going out and coming back). Would you like to know my observations of the police presence? not particularly. It doesn’t change the fact that visiting a US monument is now temporarily a criminal act. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/99 "2013-10-07T16:58:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > not particularly. It doesn’t change the fact that visiting a US monument is now temporarily a criminal act. Because it’s closed. If you visit JC Penny when it’s closed, that’s also a criminal act. The whole RW anger over this is so utter baffling I can’t understand it. The GOP caused this. Now because they were too stupid to think about the results of their actions, they’re pissed at the Dems? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354/100 "2013-10-07T17:02:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > not particularly. It doesn’t change the fact that visiting a US monument is now temporarily a criminal act. I must ask: did you intend to make this an ironic post? Because as it stands, it is a perfect satire of Tea Party thinking: it doesn’t matter what the facts may say, I’m still right! It’s such a delicious bit of irony that I’m considering reporting the post so that it can be moved to the Pit, where parodies belong. I probably won’t do that, but if there were a SDMB Jonathan Swift Award for political satire, you might just have won it with that post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-memorial-shutdown-controversy/670354.md?page=6)