# WWII question about German/USSR invasion of Poland **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 25, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574 "2005-08-25T15:55:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/1 "2005-08-25T15:55:11Z")
Was talking to one of my son’s the other day and he was asking me about some WWII history. I have a ‘History Channel’ grasp of the history of WWII…which is to say that the subject interests me but I have no deep knowledge of the conflict. Anyway, my son was asking me why the war initially started in Europe, and I was explaining to him about how Hitler had kept pushing the Allies by taking over this country and that territory…always claiming it would be the last…until Germany invaded Poland. When that happened there were treaties that went into effect between England, France and Poland that caused the first two to declair war on Germany (this is all in the IIRC territory). I then explained something of the Polish campaign, where Germany slashed into Poland and was driving on Warsaw, and how the Poles had stripped their garrisons on the Russian borders to help stem the tide…only to be attacked in their rear by the Russians. At this point my son asked me…why didn’t France and Britian declare war on Russia too? Um…no idea. Anyone know? Or is my take on history simply muddled? -XT ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/2 "2005-08-25T16:07:57Z")
An [old thread on the same question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=273206) from almost exactly a year ago. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/3 "2005-08-25T16:13:21Z")
Ok, thanks. I’ll check it out. Should have done a search on it before I posted I guess. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/4 "2005-08-25T16:19:56Z")
An interesting thread, about something I never really thought about before. As an interesting sidelight, Germany attempted to justify its invasion of Poland by claiming they had been [attacked](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Gleiwitz_radio_station). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/5 "2005-08-25T16:23:54Z")
I read through the other thread and its interesting but I’m not sure if the question was ever actually answered. Perhaps a mod could move this thread to GD instead? It seems there IS no actual answer to this…which is kind of a surprise to me. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/6 "2005-08-25T16:30:40Z")
Oh, I don’t know – it sounded like Britain and France had no treaty obligation to protect Poland except against the Germans. And because the Germans struck first, pulling Britain and France into war against them, the British and French were reluctant at that point to compound their already substantial problems by declaring war against the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/7 "2005-08-25T16:38:47Z")
From what I’ve read, the other ‘Great Powers’ were pretty much expecting the USSR to be aligned with them in checking Fascist aggression (the bolshies/fascists being well-known for hating one another) and were totally blindsided by the secret clause in the Non-Aggression Pact. The invasion of Poland triggered the pre-announced declaration of war, and there was no Plan B for the Soviets jumping in on the wrong side. Which proves that Hitler may have been a loon, but he was also cunning enough to be a real problem. Shame Stalin didn’t learn the lesson and got caught out himself a few years later. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/8 "2005-08-25T16:44:24Z")
It’s pretty simple: why would they want to fight a war with another country when they were already at war with Germany? Didn’t they have enough problems? Russian wasn’t a threat to French and British soil. Germany was. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/9 "2005-08-26T15:38:39Z")
The Allies actually did consider going to war with the USSR in 1940, after the invasion of Finland. I don’t have a cite available right now, but I’m sure someone could google one up. There were somewhat absurd plans to potentially bomb the oilfields near Baku or send a force through Norway and Sweden(!) to aid the Finnish. Saner voices prevailed, and nothing ever came of these plans. I’m not sure they considered anything similar in 1939, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the same silly notions had to be shouted down then too. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/10 "2005-08-26T16:17:29Z")
I don’t know the justification for not going to Poland’s aid against the Soviets but it would have been only a symbolic gesture in any case. Brittain and France had no way of getting direct aid to Poland on its front against the USSR. Nor did they against Germany _in Poland._ However, at least they could have relieved some pressure on Poland had they attacked Germany from the west. It turned out that the battle in Poland was over before either could effectively mobilize for war. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/11 "2005-08-26T16:23:17Z")
It just seems odd to me that France and Britian declared war on Germany over Poland but did nothing about the USSR. As for a symbolic gesture, I’m sure that Britian at least would have been in a position to blockade the Soviets. This might have had merely a ‘symbolic’ effect, but it would have been something. Heck, the declaration of war on Germany was mainly ‘symbolic’ for some time, as, IIRC, this was the ‘phoney war’ period where no one did much of anything. I think the French might have pushed a few troops across the border, but quickly withdrew them. Germany declared war on the US in response to the Japanese attacks, even though the most they could do to us was block our shipments of supplies to Britian and perhaps interdict some of our own trade. They had no real expectation of being able to attack the US directly after all. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/12 "2005-08-26T16:45:07Z")
The Soviets claimed that they hadn’t actually invaded Poland. Their claim was that the Polish government had collapsed since the Germans had attacked. so Poland no longer existed. They were only occupying ungoverned territory which they had an existing claim on (the region they occupied was a former part of the Soviet Union). A very thin fig leaf (especially as there was still an existing Polish government and Polish troops didfight the Soviets) but enough to allow France and the Uk to avoid being obligated to declare war on the USSR on top of Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/13 "2005-08-26T17:02:17Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > The Soviets claimed that they hadn’t actually invaded Poland. Their claim was that the Polish government had collapsed since the Germans had attacked. so Poland no longer existed. It’s particularly…interesting to see the Frank Capra propoganda film from the period around this time. The reason they were giving to the people watching these in the theaters was that Russia had come in and, basically, “valliantly prevented the evil Nazis from conquering all of Europe”. So, the Powers What Was were spinning it as ‘Russia checking the Nazis’ when it was actually, of course, ‘Russia colluding with the Nazis’. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/14 "2005-08-26T21:19:10Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It just seems odd to me that France and Britian declared war on Germany over Poland but did nothing about the USSR. As for a symbolic gesture, I’m sure that Britian at least would have been in a position to blockade the Soviets. This might have had merely a ‘symbolic’ effect, but it would have been something. Heck, the declaration of war on Germany was mainly ‘symbolic’ for some time, as, IIRC, this was the ‘phoney war’ period where no one did much of anything. I think the French might have pushed a few troops across the border, but quickly withdrew them. Could be but it’s long since been a ‘coulda, shoulda, woulda.’ > [@](#): > > Germany declared war on the US in response to the Japanese attacks, even though the most they could do to us was block our shipments of supplies to Britian and perhaps interdict some of our own trade. They had no real expectation of being able to attack the US directly after all. I think Hitler declared war on the US because he wanted to have a free hand in attacking US ships who had long been harassing his U-boats. He seems to have looked at the US military with the navy largely in the Pacific and crippled and a army of 150000 plus a bunch of ill-equipped draftees who had been in a little over a year and figured it would be years before we could be a threat. In the meantime, if he could just make his U-boat campaign a little more effective Britain might easily have to give up and ask for peace. In the early 1940’s, without the British Isles as a base there was no reasonable chance that the US could or would undertake a attack on Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/15 "2005-08-27T02:38:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Could be but it’s long since been a ‘coulda, shoulda, woulda.’ A tragic lost opportunity. The Germans had essentially stripped their western frontier to send troops to Poland. If the French had attacked in the first two weeks of the war, World War II would have been over in 1939. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/16 "2005-08-27T10:55:00Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > A tragic lost opportunity. The Germans had essentially stripped their western frontier to send troops to Poland. If the French had attacked in the first two weeks of the war, World War II would have been over in 1939. I believe the three main reasons were : 1. The allies would rather have Germany attacking and breaking its teeth on prepared positions 2)They thought they weren’t militarily ready (in particular from the point of view of the weapons available) for an offensive, and wouldn’t be before the fall of 1940 (when, according to what I read, lacking a German offensive, the allies had planned to attack). 3)Poland was considered a lost cause anyway, and taking risks just to somehow delay an unavoidable quick fall wasn’t thought to be worth it. (As \*\* Xtisme \*\* mentionned, indeed a very small french force entered Germany on a very small distance, hanged around there (unnoposed) for some time and then was withdrawn behind the Maginot line. It was a complete non-event, since I had never heard about it before a couple years ago. I’m not sure what was the point. Maybe they did this just because they could in case they’d think of something, change their plans or somesuch). ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/17 "2005-08-27T11:13:59Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Could be but it’s long since been a ‘coulda, shoulda, woulda.’ > > I think Hitler declared war on the US because he wanted to have a free hand in attacking US ships who had long been harassing his U-boats. He seems to have looked at the US military with the navy largely in the Pacific and crippled and a army of 150000 plus a bunch of ill-equipped draftees who had been in a little over a year and figured it would be years before we could be a threat. In the meantime, if he could just make his U-boat campaign a little more effective Britain might easily have to give up and ask for peace. In the early 1940’s, without the British Isles as a base there was no reasonable chance that the US could or would undertake a attack on Germany. That, and the hopes that Japan would react by declaring war on the USSR, which would’ve given the Soviets a two-front war they didn’t want; though whether the Japanese could have actually achieved anything much is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/18 "2005-08-27T14:08:03Z")
re the OP it makes more sense if you don’t think of it as “The Invasion of Poland caused WWII” but conceptualize it as “A series of aggressive German moves, that culminated in the Invasion of Poland, caused WWII” . IOW the invasion of Poland was the straw that broke the camel’s back not the backbreaker in and of itself. re English and French troops to be sent to Finland to fight the Soviets it was in the works. The Agreement was made 2/05/40 if the Finnish Government would publically request them – however it was too late and the Finns agreed to terms with the USSR officially on 3/12 – but really the decision was made earlier. One Cite [http://ehistory.osu.edu/wwii/timeline.cfm](http://ehistory.osu.edu/wwii/timeline.cfm) But you can Google for more info. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/19 "2005-08-27T17:35:00Z")
> [@jimmmy](#): > > re English and French troops to be sent to Finland to fight the Soviets it was in the works. The Agreement was made 2/05/40 if the Finnish Government would publically request them … > > One Cite > [Search | eHISTORY](http://ehistory.osu.edu/wwii/timeline.cfm) > But you can Google for more info. Snort, snort. Giggle, giggle. Were those people deficient in map reading? ---
**Author:** ![BoringDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@BoringDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoringDad)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574/20 "2005-08-28T02:40:31Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It just seems odd to me that France and Britian declared war on Germany over Poland but did nothing about the USSR. As for a symbolic gesture, I’m sure that Britian at least would have been in a position to blockade the Soviets. This might have had merely a ‘symbolic’ effect, but it would have been something. I am curious as to what you think Britain would have blockaded the Soviets from? Britain didn’t have any fleet presence in the Baltic Sea, so no blockade of Leningrad. Britain could have blockaded Russia’s northern coast, but prior to Lend-Lease shipments FROM Britain and America, I can’t imagine that Murmansk was a giant trading port for vital supplies. Perhaps Britain’s giant Black Sea fleet could have… hmmm nope. Oh, well surely Britain could have could have cordoned off Eastern Russia. The Japanese Imperial Navy would have had no problems with that or… Hmmm. So, to remove the snark, Britain really could not do anything very useful to punish the Soviets, and as mentioned before, had great incentive NOT to punish Russia. Treaties are politics and war is politics. Winning a war takes precedence over upholding vague treaties with countries who are already conquered. There really seems to be little need for a Great Debate. Britain and France COULD have declared war on Russia, but there was no benefit to them, so they did not. Sucks for Poland, but the motives seem simple. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwii-question-about-german-ussr-invasion-of-poland/318574.md?page=2)