# WWJD Re: Gay People. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2019, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146 "2019-05-18T09:06:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/81 "2019-06-11T14:08:09Z")
> [@fedman](#): > > aren’t you ignoring Genesis 19:5? That’s about rape and about betrayal of guests. Doesn’t say a thing about consensual homosexual behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/82 "2019-06-11T14:23:38Z")
I asked a rah-rah (radically religious) Christian this very question, and got a two word answer (CURE THEM!) Life is so simple for some people. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/83 "2019-06-11T15:57:18Z")
Interesting article I just ran across: [Has “Homosexual” always been in the Bible?](https://www.forgeonline.org/blog/2019/3/8/what-about-romans-124-27?fbclid=IwAR38FXeFiYzaFhbYr1mkIJlEyAUzgk2NfTI7uaTew-6SOYFfMjSlYbXxzd4) > [@](#): > > THE WORD _ARSENOKOITAI_ SHOWS UP IN TWO DIFFERENT VERSES IN THE BIBLE, BUT IT WAS NOT TRANSLATED TO MEAN HOMOSEXUAL UNTIL 1946. > [@](#): > > I had a German friend come back to town and I asked if he could help me with some passages in one of my German Bibles from the 1800s. So we went to Leviticus 18:22 and he’s translating it for me word for word. In the English it says “Man shall not lie with man, for it is an abomination,” In the German version it says “Man shall not lie with young boys as he does with women, for it an abomination.” I said, “What?! Are you sure?” He said, “Yes!” So we went to Leviticus 20:13— same thing, “Young boys.” So we went to 1 Corinthians to see how they translated arsenokoitai (original greek word) and instead of homosexuals it said, “Boy molesters will not inherit the kingdom of God.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/84 "2019-06-11T18:01:53Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Interesting article I just ran across: > > [Has “Homosexual” always been in the Bible?](https://www.forgeonline.org/blog/2019/3/8/what-about-romans-124-27?fbclid=IwAR38FXeFiYzaFhbYr1mkIJlEyAUzgk2NfTI7uaTew-6SOYFfMjSlYbXxzd4) Yes, more or less: [http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/modern-translations-from-ideology-malakoi-arsenokoitai/](http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/modern-translations-from-ideology-malakoi-arsenokoitai/) \*English translations of the Bible have used the following words (not an exhaustive list) to represent the concept of arsenokoitais: bugger (1557) liers with mankind (1582) sodomites (1735) abusers of themselves with mankind (1885) those who abuse themselves with men (1890) The closest meaning of arsenokoitai over five hundred years of translation was men who took the active role inScreen Shot 2014-09-20 at 1.21.41 PM nonprocreative sex. Arsenokoitai did not define what we would call the sexual orientation of a person; it indicated the role played in the sexual act. The curious shift in Greek words that began to reflect cultural disgust A curious shift began to happen for the first time in the late 1940s: Arsenokoitai was translated in the 1946 Revised Standard Version (RSV) of the Bible as “homosexual.” This meant that the translation changed the meaning of the original word from a condemnation of any kind of man who played the dominant role in sex with another male to a condemnation of one specific kind of man—a gay person. After the RSV translated arsenokoitai to “homosexual,” the floodgates opened. Historical translation of arsenokoitai Arsenokoitai was soon translated variously: pervert (1962) sexual pervert (1966) sodomite (1966)[1] those who practice homosexuality (1978) These changing translations directly reflect the evolving perceptions of gay people in the culture surrounding the American translators of the Bible.\* ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/85 "2019-06-11T20:03:57Z")
The bible has nothing against having very close same sex friends that you love like David was to Jonathan. However it clearly shows that marriage and having children, was reserved for heterosexual relations. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/86 "2019-06-11T20:17:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, more or less: > > [http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/modern-translations-from-ideology-malakoi-arsenokoitai/](http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/modern-translations-from-ideology-malakoi-arsenokoitai/) > \*English translations of the Bible have used the following words (not an exhaustive list) to represent the concept of arsenokoitais: > > bugger (1557) > liers with mankind (1582) > sodomites (1735) > abusers of themselves with mankind (1885) > those who abuse themselves with men (1890) > The closest meaning of arsenokoitai over five hundred years of translation was men who took the active role inScreen Shot 2014-09-20 at 1.21.41 PM nonprocreative sex. Arsenokoitai did not define what we would call the sexual orientation of a person; it indicated the role played in the sexual act. > > The curious shift in Greek words that began to reflect cultural disgust > A curious shift began to happen for the first time in the late 1940s: Arsenokoitai was translated in the 1946 Revised Standard Version (RSV) of the Bible as “homosexual.” This meant that the translation changed the meaning of the original word from a condemnation of any kind of man who played the dominant role in sex with another male to a condemnation of one specific kind of man—a gay person. > > After the RSV translated arsenokoitai to “homosexual,” the floodgates opened. > > Historical translation of arsenokoitai > Arsenokoitai was soon translated variously: > > pervert (1962) > sexual pervert (1966) > sodomite (1966)[1] > those who practice homosexuality (1978) > These changing translations directly reflect the evolving perceptions of gay people in the culture surrounding the American translators of the Bible.\* From your cite: _In the culture in which arsenokoitai originated, the meaning was closest either to pederasty or to a man engaged in exploitative sex with a male with some sort of trade or money involved. Such relationships were not and are not equal-status relationships; one partner has power, while the other is being used and degraded._ Strangely enough, that happens to agree wit h **Thudlow Boink** ’s linked article. ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/87 "2019-06-11T21:22:47Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > That’s about rape and about betrayal of guests. Doesn’t say a thing about consensual homosexual behavior. did you read the part where the mob wanted to have carnal relations with male angels? It’s still homosexual ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/88 "2019-06-11T22:40:45Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > From your cite: > > _In the culture in which arsenokoitai originated, the meaning was closest either to pederasty or to a man engaged in exploitative sex with a male with some sort of trade or money involved. Such relationships were not and are not equal-status relationships; one partner has power, while the other is being used and degraded._ > > Strangely enough, that happens to agree wit h **Thudlow Boink** ’s linked article. I was not disagreeing. Sounds very plausible. However, honestly, since St Paul _made up the word_, we can’t really be sure. It does not seem to mean simply being gay, we can agree on that. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/89 "2019-06-12T00:23:00Z")
> [@fedman](#): > > did you read the part where the mob wanted to have carnal relations with male angels? It’s still homosexual Yes, they wanted to have carnal relations – against the will of the angels. What’s mob rape got to do with consensual relationships? I actually even read the part about Lot offering the mob his daughters to rape instead. Which is why I said it’s also about betraying guests; because that’s the very best color I can put on that scene, given that Lot is shown as being favored by God. There seem to be four possibilities there: one, that the family as a whole was responsible for the proper treatment of guests so handing over the guests would have been worse than handing over the daughters; two, that Lot knew they were angels and thought that raping angels was worse than raping humans, or possibly was afraid that he and maybe his entire family would be in for divine punishment if he didn’t defend them; three, that the daughters were considered not really as people but as Lot’s property that he could do what he wanted with; and four, that God is perfectly fine with gang rape just so long as the people getting raped are female. You seem to have chosen option number four. I don’t, personally, think that one reflects very well on God. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/90 "2019-06-12T02:56:59Z")
Jesus said in Matthew 19:5 4Jesus answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”… For me, regardless of what you think “sin” is, the bible clearly points in the direction of men and women being made for each other. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/91 "2019-06-12T03:01:41Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Jesus said in Matthew 19:5 > > 4Jesus answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”… > > For me, regardless of what you think “sin” is, the bible clearly points in the direction of men and women being made for each other. If that’s the case, shouldn’t celibacy be as big a sin as homosexuality? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/92 "2019-06-12T08:53:21Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > After he’d be crucified (or today, what? death by injection? electric chair?) A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers’ blood. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/93 "2019-06-12T10:21:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If that’s the case, shouldn’t celibacy be as big a sin as homosexuality? \*Please \*don’t give the cunts ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/94 "2019-06-12T12:34:58Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Jesus said in Matthew 19:5 > > 4Jesus answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”… > > For me, regardless of what you think “sin” is, the bible clearly points in the direction of men and women being made for each other. We’re not really debating what we think sin is, we’re guesstimating what Jesus would think homosexuality is if he were to appear among us. Maybe the bible does reflect his thoughts at the time but those interpretations were written by men and man’s ideas have changed over two millennia. I still can’t quite grasp _why_ JC would oppose same sex relations. And the why seems pretty important. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/95 "2019-06-12T13:12:27Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > We’re not really debating what we think sin is, we’re guesstimating what Jesus would think homosexuality is if he were to appear among us. Maybe the bible does reflect his thoughts at the time but those interpretations were written by men and man’s ideas have changed over two millennia. > > I still can’t quite grasp _why_ JC would oppose same sex relations. And the why seems pretty important. Well for me, I dont debate sin either because it can be hard to define. I feel we know it in our own hearts. Just like in John when Jesus told the crowd who was about to stone the adulterous woman “he who is without sin cast the first stone”, he never singled out the thieves, drunkards, gossips, and adulterers. People knew in their own hearts what their sins were so they dropped their stones and walked away. I dont know all the answers. Only God. Now personally - I am at the point of my walk with the Lord that if someone was to ask, I would give them my opinion but along with that, if a person confesses to me they are a true Christian and that they have personally read the bible and prayed over this issue that if after prayer they feel God is telling them ok, then I dont bring it up because in truth we all have to stand before judgement. Now if someone isnt a Christian and accepted Christ then I would witness to them to do that. THEN it is up to them to pray, read the bible, and accept the guidance of the holy spirit as to what is sin or not. So please let me ask. Are you a Christian first? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/96 "2019-06-12T13:19:59Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > The bible has nothing against having very close same sex friends that you love like David was to Jonathan. However it clearly shows that marriage and having children, was reserved for heterosexual relations. Not anymore, buckko > [@fedman](#): > > did you read the part where the mob wanted to have carnal relations with male angels? It’s still homosexual No, it’s rape and any type of rape is always wrong. WWJD about consensual homosexual relationships? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/97 "2019-06-12T13:35:55Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well for me, I dont debate sin either because it can be hard to define. I feel we know it in our own hearts. Just like in John when Jesus told the crowd who was about to stone the adulterous woman “he who is without sin cast the first stone”, he never singled out the thieves, drunkards, gossips, and adulterers. People knew in their own hearts what their sins were so they dropped their stones and walked away. > > I dont know all the answers. Only God. Now personally - I am at the point of my walk with the Lord that if someone was to ask, I would give them my opinion but along with that, if a person confesses to me they are a true Christian and that they have personally read the bible and prayed over this issue that if after prayer they feel God is telling them ok, then I dont bring it up because in truth we all have to stand before judgement. > > Now if someone isnt a Christian and accepted Christ then I would witness to them to do that. THEN it is up to them to pray, read the bible, and accept the guidance of the holy spirit as to what is sin or not. > > So please let me ask. Are you a Christian first? Of course not and I don’t accept scripture as an authority on social issues. There will be a credibility gap between me and anyone who does. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/98 "2019-06-12T13:40:14Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers’ blood. JC was crucified which, then, was the most public, humiliating, and torturous way to be killed. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/99 "2019-06-12T13:41:15Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > WWJD about consensual homosexual relationships? He would love them. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146/100 "2019-06-12T13:43:08Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > JC was crucified which, then, was the most public, humiliating, and torturous way to be killed. If the man was a _god_, he could take away the pain and all the negativity of the experience, AND he knew he’d be okay in three days. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wwjd-re-gay-people/834146.md?page=6)