# X-men ad violence against women? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 3, 2016, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429 "2016-06-03T21:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/41 "2016-06-04T07:54:21Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > No, choking a woman is not worse than choking a man. But a picture of a man choking a woman has certain connotations that choking a man does not, the same way a white man whipping a black man has connotations that a white man whipping another white man does not. So an orange haired scaly blue…thing is being choked by whatever the fuck Oscar Isaacs is supposed to be, and that has domestic violence connotations?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/42 "2016-06-04T08:08:46Z")
> [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](http://i.imgur.com/QLCqVKm.jpg) > I get what the people upset over the image are talking about but it does seem more a way for celebrities to be _seen_ to be doing something, rather than actually doing something. I don’t believe that, that image was ever used in advertising for the series. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/43 "2016-06-04T11:16:15Z")
Movies aren’t real, superheroes aren’t real, men aren’t going to start going around grabbing blue women by the throat any time soon. Promise. Someone send them the memo. Obviously the only acceptable superhero scenario for these people is that female superheroes only do the ass kicking, and never get their ass kicked. A marvelous formula for the superhero genre. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/44 "2016-06-04T15:30:02Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > Obviously the only acceptable superhero scenario for these people is that female superheroes only do the ass kicking, and never get their ass kicked. > > A marvelous formula for the superhero genre. Except that we’re not talking about acceptable scenarios for a movie, but acceptable images for a public billboard. I’m not sure there’s whether anything wrong with the billboard, but the argument that there is isn’t totally unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/45 "2016-06-04T15:33:16Z")
I don’t see the problem. I’m not going to take advice from Rose McGowan anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/46 "2016-06-04T15:50:43Z")
And Rose McGowan has done her fair share of trope enforcing. Tbf she’s also broken some too. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/47 "2016-06-04T15:53:21Z")
Yeah, it’s interesting that a woman who made a career of parading her naked ass on film is upset about a grey male strangling a blue female. No double standards there. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/48 "2016-06-04T15:58:34Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > So an orange haired scaly blue…thing is being choked by whatever the fuck Oscar Isaacs is supposed to be, and that has domestic violence connotations?:dubious: Yes, an obviously male “person” choking an obviously female “person” has domestic violence connotations, despite their costumes. If it doesn’t have such connotations for you, you might consider if this is related to your position and experiences in society. > [@Ibanez](#): > > Movies aren’t real, superheroes aren’t real, men aren’t going to start going around grabbing blue women by the throat any time soon. Promise. You’re missing the entire conversation. No one here is arguing that the movie needs to be changed in any way. If your mind is already made up on this, cool. I’m not going to be able to change it. But if you’re trying to figure out why some people think the ad is problematic, try asking yourself these questions before you immediately dismiss people’s concerns. Go back to my example of Indiana Jones. Do you think an image of Indy whipping a black man, with no context, would be a good choice for an ad? If not, why? Do you see any parallels between an image of a white man whipping a black man, and a man choking a woman? If not, why do you feel it is different - why is one image fine but the other one isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/49 "2016-06-04T16:01:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Well, there’s this.](http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/xmenmovies/images/6/67/Wolverine_lift_by_magneto.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120109093726) That happens in comic books and in movies. Do images like that ever get turned into movie posters, or into comic book covers? A few years ago I saw a website that parodied this: they took several images from comic book covers of women superheroes being tortured by men superheroes, and substituted men superheroes instead. So the Joker was behind Batman (instead of Batgirl) holding a knife to his (instead of her) throat, and he (not she) was sweating and looking terrified. That kind of thing. It was jarring. The thing is, while the violence happens against male and female characters, posters and billboards and covers and such disproportionately feature female protagonists being attacked by male villains, with the female protagonists appearing helpless. For that image you linked to to be equivalent, it’d have to be the poster for the movie. I’m not saying it represents hatred of women, or approval of strangling women, or anything like that. I just think it’s an interesting, and kind of unpleasant, trend in advertising geek culture, and I’d be happy to see either some parity in covers/posters, or see this kind of cover/poster go away. Show my heroes, male and female, kicking ass! ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/50 "2016-06-04T16:08:54Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Yeah, it’s interesting that a woman who made a career of parading her naked ass on film is upset about a grey male strangling a blue female. No double standards there. What does this even mean? If an actress is OK with nudity, she should also support domestic violence? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/51 "2016-06-04T16:14:32Z")
Taking advantage of one stereotype but complaining about another (which, by the way, is completely manufactured). If it weren’t for this little kerfuffle, I’d never even have thought about domestic violence in the poster, because I know the difference between comic book characters and real life. It’s the same PC BS that equates video-game playing with future violent tendencies. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/52 "2016-06-04T16:34:55Z")
I was all set to ask, “Are you saying that Mystique doesn’t have what it takes to be an X-Man?”… but a trendy answer doesn’t get to the heart of this. The comic is about a Team… about people who are all very different working their rears off to try to not let down other people whose talents they respect. Yes, its a common joke/trope that each and every one of them has some kind of soliloquy every few issues wondering if they are good enough. Women are as indispensable as men on this team and there have been entire plot lines about battles lost due to some of the team not being there. I personally see the X-men as a great vehicle for showing women as equal or better to the best men put up. J-Law is not a weak shrinking violet. Right now, after training so hard for this film, she could probably kick the ass of anyone reading this (Olivia Munn probably could too). I don’t think her confidence or her competence has ever even whispered violence against women. The billboard does show a woman held on a position that looks helpless in a hold that would kill her. The design is flawed that way. That said, in the history of comic books, there have often been covers that showed drawings of beautiful women in mortal danger, possibly to get 12 year old boys to buy that issue. In a way, historically, it can be seen as cannon. This steps outside of cannon though because 1) these aren’t drawings, and 2) 12 year old boys aren’t usually drivers stuck in traffic who are looking up and reading billboards. Rose has a point, J-Law has every right to be up there on that billboard, but the design of the shot showing her as beaten (possibly as a comic book cover shout-out) is an Epic Fail, IMHO. (So, call back the actors, put them in make-up, shoot a depiction of a different point in the fight & put it up over the old billboard quickly. You’ll STILL make all your money back, Hollywood, a hundred times over.) ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/53 "2016-06-04T16:41:50Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > If it weren’t for this little kerfuffle, I’d never even have thought about domestic violence in the poster, **because I know the difference between comic book characters and real life**. (emphasis added) I certainly believe you wouldn’t have thought of it, but I think there might be other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/54 "2016-06-04T16:51:54Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I think the important point was at the very beginning of Rose McGowan’s post: “there is no context in the ad, just a woman getting strangled.” She isn’t complaining about the movie, she’s pointing out that this particular ad, stripped of all context, shows simply a woman being choked. And that image is a powerful one whose first implication isn’t “this woman kicks ass,” or even “a villain fights a superhero.” I had no context for the billboard. I just assumed Mystique gave Apocalypse some lip over something stupid after he just came home from a long day at work planning world domination. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/55 "2016-06-04T17:13:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > A few years ago I saw a website that parodied this: they took several images from comic book covers of women superheroes being tortured by men superheroes, and substituted men superheroes instead. So the Joker was behind Batman (instead of Batgirl) holding a knife to his (instead of her) throat, and he (not she) was sweating and looking terrified. That kind of thing. It was jarring. > > The thing is, while the violence happens against male and female characters, posters and billboards and covers and such disproportionately feature female protagonists being attacked by male villains, with the female protagonists appearing helpless. > … My theory: images that show women being threatened (not hurt or tortured, necessarily, but _in danger of_ being hurt or killed)—the proverbial damsel in distress—are so powerful because we’re either hardwired or conditioned (or perhaps some of each) to react when women are threatened. We’re driven, perhaps instinctively, to want to protect, defend, or save them. (By “we” I mean men, at least; I’m not sure whether this applies to other women as well or not.) So the reason such images on posters and billboards and comic-book covers are so attention-grabbing and compelling for at least some people is not because we hate women and want to see them threatened or victimized; it’s because we feel protective toward women and want to see them saved from what threatens them. Not that this isn’t still problematic, in the way it objectifies women and shows them as powerless. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/56 "2016-06-04T17:15:21Z")
Well, the Lifetime network makes money by portraying women in peril at the hands of evil men. Could not the poster be appealing to that? Apparently women eat that shit up. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/57 "2016-06-04T17:20:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So the Joker was behind Batman (instead of Batgirl) holding a knife to his (instead of her) throat, and he (not she) was sweating and looking terrified. That kind of thing. It was jarring. It is jarring. As I said, substitute Wolverine for Mystique. But, again, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, context. I think **Dale Sams** summed up the image on this particular billboard in its proper context in the best way yet: > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > What… women are immune to the Worf Effect??? Mystique is a badass. Getting owned by Apocalypse shows he’s the real deal. Now, another thought, which popped into my head as I was in the shower earlier: The fact that that substituting men for women in some images make them jarring doesn’t mean that they should suddenly and automatically be verboten. You can do it with that picture of Ripley, too. It may not be a very good test. In recent years I’ve been learning to play the guitar. I noticed something when I was first teaching myself to play some Suzanne Vega songs. When I, as a man, perform certain songs, the effect is a bit silly. Jarring. A little bit ridiculous. But when Suzanne Vega, or any woman, does it, it’s fine. Putting a woman in some situations can allow access to a different set of emotional expression. I’ve been jealous of women for that. It seems that they are allowed a wider spectrum in some ways. Suzanne Vega can also play the songs written by men, and it’s still fine. She has a broader range than me, It doesn’t seem fair, because I want to play her songs, too, and get the same effect. But, nope it doesn’t sit right. And I’m clearly the one losing out there. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/58 "2016-06-04T18:02:44Z")
Let’s see if I can put this in another way. It’s about where the narrative focus is. It’s about who the protagonist is. Who we identify with, and where our sympathies are. Just because someone looks passive in a particular image, even if it’s a woman, it doesn’t have to mean that they are. In the picture with the alien and Ripley, that’s not really the alien doing something to Ripley. Our focus is entirely on Ripley. We’re inside her head. It’s the same with Mystique and Apocalypse (as opposed to, maybe “a man” and “a woman”, stripped of context). She’s the active one in that image, in a narrative sense, and in the context of the broader story. We’re in her head. “Flipping” the image to a domestic violence thing isn’t just about stripping the context. It’s about changing who the focus is on and who we’re meant to read as the protagonist. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/59 "2016-06-04T18:15:41Z")
Too late for edit: Note that I’m not saying that [this kind of crap](https://chudbeagleblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/5c415-wonderwoman_torpedoed_issue68.png?w=405&h=582) is the same thing. I’m saying the other thing: I’m saying that it’s not necessarily the same thing. Although, yes, there is a layer of that Wonder Woman image in the picture of Mystique and Apocalypse. And I certainly don’t think that’s accidental. I do actually think we’re supposed to notice. So I’m back to that. But they’re not equivalent. It’s more ironic with Mystique. And it’s just one layer. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/60 "2016-06-04T18:54:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That happens in comic books and in movies. Do images like that ever get turned into movie posters, or into comic book covers? Sometimes, sure. Here’s some comic covers featuring Wolverine. I did a search on “Wolverine comic covers,” and picked out covers that show Wolverine not just in peril, but helpless or powerless in the face of an enemy: [Wolverine impaled by swords.](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/08/24/27/0824271ad0e552229199ba014597a319.jpg) [Wolverine disintegrated by a Sentinal.](http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/wolverineiconic5-3.jpg) [Wolverine in a pieta.](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/61/89/df/6189df09a5997bdca46a4d1e62bf4e8b.jpg) Although the grim reaper there isn’t exactly menacing him, so maybe this one’s a bit of a stretch. [Wolverine being strangled by another Wolverine who, I guess, is some sort of robot or something?](http://comicmegastore.com/images/marvel-misc/wolverine-comic-038.jpg) Probably the most on-point example I could find. [Wolverine having his eyes burnt out.](https://www.smashingmagazine.com/images/comic-art-covers/cover41.jpg) Admittedly, Wolverine taking a horrendous beating and not dying is his major superpower, so putting some of these things on a cover is a bit like putting a picture of Superman lifting a car on the cover of one his books. And I’m not putting this up as proof that the Mystique poster isn’t problematic - but this sort of imagery in comics is not _entirely_ one sided. Actually, I suspect that, in terms of raw numbers, there are vastly more comic covers featuring helpless male heroes in peril than helpless female heroes\* in peril… but, of course, that’s a function of how few female superheroes out there who get their own book. (\*Well, maybe. Wonder Woman alone is gong to skew those numbers pretty hard.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429.md?page=4)