# X-men ad violence against women? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 3, 2016, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429 "2016-06-03T21:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/81 "2016-06-05T03:45:17Z")
Crap. I just tried googling up images of Mystique kicking ass from the comics, for some contrast, and I was reminded of something. Comic book imagery, in general, is [sexist](http://covers.cbrd.info/36222948d5ac949bd725f62f1d1bd796_l.jpg) [as](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/0e/ea/53/0eea5304a02bfee1dc49a6e08511e173.jpg) [fuck](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/82/a5/2a/82a52a4f78603c2da72835e76969c9ac.jpg). It’s like a giant strip club. I forgot about all that. Maybe I shouldn’t pick this particular hill to die on. I suspect that Rose McGowan just had a “OK, that does it, I’ve had it up to _here_” moment, and finally snapped. I don’t think I blame her. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/82 "2016-06-05T04:01:48Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > But honestly seeing this X-Men poster, it wouldn’t of crossed my mind that people are going to have issues with the poster. Even if people have no clue what the X-Men films are. I’d think a poster of a grey guy choking a blue girl can’t be any more obvious that it’s make believe, fantasy, art, sci-fi etc. I don’t think anyone is objecting to the billboard because they mistook it for a real-life photo of a man actually choking a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/83 "2016-06-05T06:44:03Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > (emphasis added) > > I certainly believe you wouldn’t have thought of it, but I think there might be other reasons. Such as? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/84 "2016-06-05T06:58:35Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > You can just tell that when someone first drew that costume, they really were thinking that she needs a good old torpedo between the legs to sort her out. Wonder Woman, coming from the same era as other classic heroes, almost certainly had her costume designed in the model of a trapeze artist or circus equestrian performer just as Superman’s goofy-ass “underwear on the outside” look came from circus strongmen and really the whole tights thing in general stemmed from circus performers. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/85 "2016-06-05T11:05:32Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Wonder Woman, coming from the same era as other classic heroes, almost certainly had her costume designed in the model of a trapeze artist or circus equestrian performer just as Superman’s goofy-ass “underwear on the outside” look came from circus strongmen and really the whole tights thing in general stemmed from circus performers. Wonder woman has a fascinating history as a character, designed by a feminist Jungian psychiatrist with free love and bondage impulses. There’s an historian, Jill Lepore, who did some work on this incredibly weird dude recently. [It’s worth reading](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/origin-story-wonder-woman-180952710/?no-ist), if you’re anywhere near the history nerd that you are a comics nerd. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/86 "2016-06-05T12:47:05Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > But there is context. It’s a comic book film. > > And anyone seeing it who doesn’t know the context can find it in seconds. > > So I don’t understand the argument “strip the context”. Why would I do that? Because we aren’t discussing the film. We’re discussing the poster, which exists separately from the film. Because the whole point is to try and understand things from a different point of view from your own. Because the idea is to remove your own biases that would keep you from seeing things objectively. The only way we can ever get along as a species is if we actually try to understand the other argument instead of vilifying each other. Just like McGowan is being an ass by not being able to understand why people would not see a problem with it, we also need to try and understand. I’ll also point out that being a comic book movie has no real bearing on this. I know plenty of comic book movies where they did sexist “damsel in distress” shit. All that matters is that the damsel in distress trope is a longstanding sexist trope. It’s not a good idea to make it look like you are invoking it if you don’t want to be called sexist. It ultimately doesn’t matter if it really is sexist or not. If enough people think it is, that’s not a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/87 "2016-06-05T17:11:14Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > So the reason such images on posters and billboards and comic-book covers are so attention-grabbing and compelling for at least some people is not because we hate women and want to see them threatened or victimized; it’s because we feel protective toward women and want to see them saved from what threatens them. Is protectiveness getting more problematic than it used to be? Here’s [Wolverine and Rogue](http://cdn.wegotthiscovered.com/wp-content/uploads/x-men-rogue.jpg) in the first X-men movie. Is that image less kosher than it was? I don’t think it bothered anyone then. Maybe it doesn’t now either. BTW, what would happen if you gender-swapped that image? Wait, they kind of [did](http://static2.hypable.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/x-men-days-of-future-past-rogue-cut-feature.jpg). I know, I’m cherrypicking those images something awful. Rogue has a character arc, which is the same as for any X-(wo)man: She learns to become a badass. Plus, she seems to be still dabbling in [distress](http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/aa1a062f3f45714493387f45a88d9592/202232951/X-Men+Days+of+Future+Past+Rogue+Cut.jpg), too. Just wondering, though. Is protectivess being grouped in more with rapeyness now? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/88 "2016-06-05T18:37:52Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Rocky actually punches a black man – would a photo showing Rocky punching a black dude make you think “This must be about slavery”? No, because the image of a white man punching a black man does not carry the same baggage as a white man whipping a black man. That’s the point of the billboard discussion: an image of a man choking a woman carries baggage. I have no problem with it in a movie as part of the story, and comparing it to stills from other movies showing similar or reversed situations is irrelevant. This is not just a movie still; it’s one they chose to use for the advertising campaign. My concern is not with that scene. It’s with the decision to make a billboard out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/89 "2016-06-05T19:23:12Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > (emphasis added) > > I certainly believe you wouldn’t have thought of it, but I think there might be other reasons. > [QUOTE=Johnny Ace] > Such as? [/QUOTE] C’mon, man. If you’re going to lay down innuendo, at least have the balls to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/90 "2016-06-05T19:38:26Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Because we aren’t discussing the film. We’re discussing the poster, which exists separately from the film. It exists as part of the film. This isn’t a drawing on a scrap of bark we’re all gathered around and trying to understand. It says what it is right on the billboard: an advertisement for an X-Men movie. Treating it outside of that context takes an intentional degree of obliviousness. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/91 "2016-06-05T20:00:21Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > C’mon, man. If you’re going to lay down innuendo, at least have the balls to back it up. Not worth it. If you can’t figure it out on your own, I can’t help you. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/92 "2016-06-05T21:12:47Z")
Fox [has apologized](http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/03/entertainment/x-men-apocalypse-jennifer-lawrence-strangled-fox-apologizes/) thinking women can handle the same men do in the comic book world, and has released a hopefully [less offensive version](http://i.imgur.com/7ssUiIb.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/93 "2016-06-06T01:35:42Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > OK, so how are Mystique on that billboard and Wonder Woman different? Well, myself, I’m glad you asked. > > For one thing, Wonder Woman is an Amazon. She’s a caricature. You can just tell that when someone first drew that costume, they really were thinking that she needs a good old torpedo between the legs to sort her out. Hercules needs to show up and take off her girldle. She’s the wild beast that needs taming. She really seems antiquated to me. How you put her in a movie today, or why you would want to, I have no clue, although I heard someone did it recently. Also, I guess she’s still in the comics. > > Being a rape victim is basically her shtick. It’s her comfort zone. When Wonder Woman gets on the business end of some domestic violence, that’s just her thing. It’s just Tuesday. Gloria Steinem would strongly disagree with that. I did not find a copy of her essay that was not behind a paywall, but Steinem is a big fan of Wonder Woman. Costume and all. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/94 "2016-06-06T01:42:30Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > I did not find a copy of her essay that was not behind a paywall […] Give us some highlights? ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/95 "2016-06-06T01:51:39Z")
> **[Cultural impact of Wonder Woman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_impact_of_Wonder_Woman)** > > Wonder Woman is a character created for comic books in 1941, the medium in which she is still most prominently found to this day. As befitting an icon of her status, she has made appearances in other forms of media and has been referenced and meta-referenced beyond the scope of traditional superhero entertainment. For several years in the 1950s, the only three superheroes to have their own comic book were Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. > The cultural impact of the character, once derided by p... > [@](#): > > In women’s culture and feminism[edit] > Gloria Steinem once wrote: > “Wonder Woman’s family of Amazons on Paradise Island, her band of college girls in America, and her efforts to save individual women are all welcome examples of women working together and caring about each other’s welfare. The idea of such cooperation may not seem particularly revolutionary to the male reader. Men are routinely depicted as working well together, but women know how rare and therefore exhilarating the idea of sisterhood really is. Wonder Woman’s mother, Queen Hippolyte, offers yet another welcome example to young girls in search of a strong identity. Queen Hippolyte founds nations, wages war to protect Paradise Island, and sends her daughter off to fight the forces of evil in the world… Wonder Woman symbolizes many of the values of the women’s culture that feminists are now trying to introduce into the mainstream: strength and self-reliance for women; sisterhood and mutual support among women; peacefulness and esteem for human life; a diminishment both of “masculine” aggression and of the belief that violence is the only way of solving conflicts.”[11] ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/96 "2016-06-06T01:56:04Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > OK, so how are Mystique on that billboard and Wonder Woman different? Well, myself, I’m glad you asked. > > For one thing, Wonder Woman is an Amazon. She’s a caricature. You can just tell that when someone first drew that costume, they really were thinking that she needs a good old torpedo between the legs to sort her out. Hercules needs to show up and take off her girldle. She’s the wild beast that needs taming. She really seems antiquated to me. How you put her in a movie today, or why you would want to, I have no clue, although I heard someone did it recently. Also, I guess she’s still in the comics. > > Being a rape victim is basically her shtick. It’s her comfort zone. When Wonder Woman gets on the business end of some domestic violence, that’s just her thing. It’s just Tuesday. > > Mystique, as a character and as a human being, is so totally not in her comfort zone in that picture. She was not expecting that to happen, and she’s not cool with it. And again, she’s a badass. That kind of thing does not usually happen to her, which is why the image is so striking if you know the character even a little bit. (Whatever is going on there, “casual” violence it isn’t. I mean, there’s casual violence all over the X-men, but that picture looks like shit just got serious.) There is rape imagery, but Mystique isn’t going to get “tamed” by Apocalypse any day soon. Screw that guy. She is not marrying him. She doesn’t even have a little bit of a crush on him. > > How you identify with Wonder Woman in a story, I don’t know. You’re not supposed to, I guess. She’s just a floozy. The entire character just looks all-round offensive to me. (Note: This is just my impression. Again, I’m no comic book expert, so I may talking out of my behind. But I’m risking it.) > > Mystique is a person. At this point, she has earned the respect of even the geeks. She’s our friend. She’s us. For most everyday purposes, she might as well be a man, and it might not even make a difference. Completely different thing. Even if she is also blue, and Jennifer Lawrence. What are you talking about? You even read comics? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/97 "2016-06-06T02:03:35Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > I was all set to ask, “Are you saying that Mystique doesn’t have what it takes to be an X-Man?”… but a trendy answer doesn’t get to the heart of this. > > The comic is about a Team… about people who are all very different working their rears off to try to not let down other people whose talents they respect. Yes, its a common joke/trope that each and every one of them has some kind of soliloquy every > few issues wondering if they are good enough. Women are as indispensable as men on this team and there have been entire plot lines about battles lost due to some of the team not being there. > I personally see the X-men as a great vehicle for showing women as equal or better to the best men put up. > > J-Law is not a weak shrinking violet. Right now, after training so hard for this film, she could probably kick the ass of anyone reading this (Olivia Munn probably could too). I don’t think her confidence or her competence has ever even whispered violence against women. > > The billboard does show a woman held on a position that looks helpless in a hold that would kill her. The design is flawed that way. That said, in the history of comic books, there have often been covers that showed drawings of beautiful women in mortal danger, > possibly to get 12 year old boys to buy that issue. In a way, historically, it can be seen as cannon. This steps outside of cannon though because 1) these aren’t drawings, and 2) 12 year old boys aren’t usually drivers stuck in traffic who are looking up and reading billboards. > > Rose has a point, J-Law has every right to be up there on that billboard, but the design of the shot showing her as beaten (possibly as a comic book cover shout-out) is an Epic Fail, IMHO. > (So, call back the actors, put them in make-up, shoot a depiction of a different point in the fight & put it up over the old billboard quickly. You’ll STILL make all your money back, Hollywood, a hundred times over.) What? This isn’t one mutant vs one mook. This is Apocalypse vs one mutant. Of course she’s getting choked. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/98 "2016-06-06T02:58:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What? This isn’t one mutant vs one mook. This is Apocalypse vs one mutant. Of course she’s getting choked. Again, though, there’s some gender thing to it. **Miller** showed a bunch of comic book covers spanning a period of several decades in which Wolverine was getting the snot kicked out of him–but when he was, he was claws out and hollerin. Would this billboard have been made with some other mutant being choked? Professor X? Cyclops? Some mutant who was clearly not in a position to fight back? Maybe; I dunno. I’m not a huge expert in comic covers and ads, my geekery cred lies elsewhere. But from the bit I’ve seen, the depiction of female superheroes as helpless (that is, not fighting, at the mercy of the villains) seems more common than the similar depiction of male superheroes. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/99 "2016-06-06T03:31:44Z")
The poster shows Apocalypse easily defeating the X-Men. Who is going to represent the X-Men here? Mystique is easily the most recognizable and probably popular character besides besides Magneto, Storm, and Xavier. Magneto and Storm were on Apocalypse’s side. Chocking Xavier, the guy in the wheelchair, would be kind of lame. Who else? The other X-Men are kinda boring and the audience doesn’t know them. Beast? Cyclops? Jean? None of those would have the same impact. Who is the one X-Men character the audience knows and likes? Mystique. C’mon. Everyone knows Mystique and pretty much everybody thinks she’s cool and knows she kicks ass. Apocalypse easily defeats her. Oh no! I need to see what happens! ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429/100 "2016-06-06T05:27:37Z")
Wolverine has his claws out in those images but he’s not roaring or fighting back. And lying with his arms hanging down limp is hardly empowering, claws or no. In images #1 & #3, he has his mouth limply open (or not at all) and in #2, #4 & #5 he’s crying out in pain. You think [those are the eyes](http://comicmegastore.com/images/marvel-misc/wolverine-comic-038.jpg) of someone in a berserker rage? But claws are what Wolverine has so, if he’s beaten in battle, then his claws were probably out. Mystique has the ability to look like different people which is a lot harder to leverage when being choked by a giant grey alien dude. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x-men-ad-violence-against-women/756429.md?page=6)