# X2 debate: Is Wolverine a murderer? (SPOILERS!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 16, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738 "2003-05-16T18:27:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Winston\_Bongo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a9adbd/32.png) [@Winston\_Bongo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Bongo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/61 "2003-05-18T13:28:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ranchoth \* > \*\*Something I’d like to note… > > The helo’s that the guys raiding the mansion used were Hueys, UH-1’s. Which, I believe, the U.S. military doesn’t even use anymore. > > That, combined with the fact that the trooper in the kitchen was using an MP-5 that still had a full-auto setting, leads me to suggest another possibility: The troopers weren’t even government agents…they were Mercs. \*\* That’s an interesting take on it. Using mercenaries would give Stryker more freedom to operate outside the law, and would show him to be more of a loose cannon and less of a stereotypical government thug. It would be nice if the film would have clarified that, though. It’s obvious that posters on both sides of this debate are equally unclear about who exactly the soldiers were and what kind of outfit Stryker was heading, all of which the movie failed to explain properly. Some might say it was left deliberately mysterious, ala “X-Files,” except even the X-Men themselves never addressed the question. Seems like at some point in the midst of all the ass-kicking, one of them would have said, “Wait a minute . . . who the hell ARE these guys anyway?” ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/62 "2003-05-18T14:12:22Z")
Legally, it doesn’t really matter if they were US Soldiers or Mercs. They were authorized by the US Government to perform a mission and thus they are acting agents of the Govt. and bound by the Const. and federal law. But there ARE exceptions to the traditional “knock and announce” rule and I think they may apply here. That said, I think Wolverine was within his rights to lethal self-defense. As others have said, he didn’t know, he had reasonable belief that he and his charges were in mortal danger, and he acted with like force. That said, I turned to Mrs. Watsonwil in the theater and whispered, “Did he just KILL that guy?” I was shocked. Because as an earlier poster so accurately said I was use to the heroes fighting GI Joe styled! This series of films is a pretty “realistic” take on mutants. BUT, I think there is room for a morality discussion. While I agree there are LARGE differences between the two, I appreciate the OP drawing comparison between Westchester and Waco (it is Westchester isn’t it?) It is an interesting connection. I do believe the soldiers could have believed they were doing right. For all we know, they were told by Stryker that this was the terrorist group responsible for the Statue of Lib incident! But in all of this I am reminded of the subcontractors on the Death Star discussion from _Clerks_! ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/63 "2003-05-18T17:50:03Z")
> [@](#): > > That said, I think Wolverine was within his rights to lethal self-defense. As others have said, he didn’t know, he had reasonable belief that he and his charges were in mortal danger, and he acted with like force. He didn’t just believe that he and the kids were in mortal danger. They WERE all in mortal danger. Stryker was planning on killing all of them, so Wolverine was quite literally fighting for his life and the lives of the kids he was supposed to protect. I think that if _anyone_ comes into your house and tries to tranquilize and kidnap the kids you are watching, then put them in an underground cage to be killed, you are not only justified but obligated to fight back with all possible force. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/64 "2003-05-18T18:39:12Z")
“reasonable belief” is a legal phrase of art. You are quite correct, though. Didn’t the agent in the kitchen shoot real bullets at Bobby before Wolverine unleashed the claws? ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/65 "2003-05-18T21:09:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > Re: his dogtags. I’m glad they’re more-or-less Canadian-style (like my own), but if the Alkali Lake facility was in Canada, the sign out front should have read “Department of National Defense”, not “Department of Defense”. But we already know Alkali Lake wasn’t Canadian. Stryker’s in the American military. There’s no question about it. I’m sort of taken aback by that info, **Nichol**. I think I’ll theorize that it was just something cute they threw in for the fanboys and girls among us, and not meant to be taken literally. I mean, how can it make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Nichol\_storm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Nichol\_storm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nichol_storm)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/66 "2003-05-19T00:00:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by White Lightning \* > \*\*But we already know Alkali Lake wasn’t Canadian. Stryker’s in the American military. There’s no question about it. > > I’m sort of taken aback by that info, Nichol. I think I’ll theorize that it was just something cute they threw in for the fanboys and girls among us, and not meant to be taken literally. I mean, how can it make sense? \*\* Wasn’t Alkali Lake in Canada? I’ll have to rewatch the original film to check, but I could’ve sworn that Xavier described it as an abandoned complex in Canada. If Wolverine’s dog tags are meant to be an Easter Egg, they’d be a mighty odd one – how many people are going to be able to tell the difference between American and Canadian dog tags, and how many more are going to care? Logan’s “spandex” comment was an in-joke; X-characters as students are Easter Eggs; the Canadian dog tags are just Canadian dog tags. I assumed the whole Weapon-X program was some sort of US/Canadian joint project. Governments have co-operated before when they had common interests, and unkillable super-soldiers are definitely interesting. Logan is Canadian and always has been Canadian, and changing his nationality is rather pointless. .:Nichol:. ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/67 "2003-05-19T01:43:35Z")
I figured maintaining it would be pointless too. Thought they had shifted Weapon X to America just to keep things tidy. I was considering the dog tags an easter egg for precisely the reason you name. Nobody was going to notice it casually, so it’s a harmless nod to canon continuity. I didn’t recall Xavier saying it was in Canada. If so, I take it all back. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/68 "2003-05-19T01:49:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by White Lightning \* > \*\*I didn’t recall Xavier saying it was in Canada. If so, I take it all back. \*\* It’s been a while since I’ve seen the first movie, but IIRC, he says it’s in Alberta. Think with the shit Singer’s getting for changing MINOR things, and things that NEED to be changed like the costumes, he’s going to turn Wolvie into a yank? ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/69 "2003-05-19T03:33:46Z")
Well yeah, I thought he had. How would that be any more offensive than making Weapon X a US program? Same change, to my mind. Guess I was mistaken, though. In that case now I’m just confused. We’re supposed to take it that Stryker used to be Canada military but now he’s US military (high enough to advise the President 1-on-1)? Or that Wolvie had a history with Canadian military before he got caught up in Weapon X? And that Stryker’s secret US military base was actually in Canada? Or that Stryker, as US military, was working jointly with Canadian military on Weapon X, which was located in Canada even though Stryker evidently ran the whole thing? ---
**Author:** ![Nichol\_storm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Nichol\_storm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nichol_storm)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/70 "2003-05-19T03:50:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by White Lightning \* > \*\*Or that Stryker, as US military, was working jointly with Canadian military on Weapon X, which was located in Canada even though Stryker evidently ran the whole thing? \*\* Why not? They were using Canadian citizens (according to his dog tag, remember, Logan was born in Ontario) in a Canadian facility. Stryker had figured out how to liquify adamantium, and perhaps the Canadian military offered him Logan as a test subject. If Stryker is to be believed, then Logan volunteered for the procedure. .:Nichol:. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/71 "2003-05-19T03:53:30Z")
Are we sure Stryker was US military, and not just a civilian military contractor? The guy seemed pretty wealthy. Maybe the Canadian connection was purely financial: he was funding their research. Or perhaps it was a joint US-Canadian program, located in Canada because it was the remotest location they could find in North America. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/72 "2003-05-19T05:39:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Maybe the Canadian connection was purely financial: he was funding their research. Or perhaps it was a joint US-Canadian program, located in Canada because it was the remotest location they could find in North America. \*\* This makes sense to me. The Canadian government sponsoring Weapon X has never made a whole lot of sense to me. This is the Canadian military here. ‘We have more submarines in the West Edmonton Mall than in the Canadian Navy’, as the joke goes. Where is the Canadian government getting the money for something like Weapon X? Not to mention that the various Weapon X agents (Wolvering, Sabertooth, Silver Fox, Maverick (I think that was the last guy’s name)) don’t seem to be working exclusively on Canadian projects in the flashbacks I can think of. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/73 "2003-05-19T06:10:59Z")
Just a thought… Was anything actually illegal going on at the Xavier mansion? The only thing I can think of would be the operation of the Blackbird, which (I’m guessing) isn’t FAA certified. And maybe some of the medications in the infirmary (e.g. Morphine, Lidocaine), as well as the C.T. scanner. Anything else? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/74 "2003-05-19T06:18:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tengu \* > Where is the Canadian government getting the money for something like Weapon X? Well, what did you think the GST was for? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/75 "2003-05-19T06:37:15Z")
I know this is getting a bit incidental, but people were going around in shirtsleeves in upstate New York while Alkali Lake was covered in snow. There’s no way that place is in the contiguous US. But Stryker didn’t have “a military base in Canada”, since Alkali Lake wasn’t a military base. He’s under the employ of the US government, but that was his own personal secret project, and why should he respect national boundaries in hiding a secret project? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/76 "2003-05-19T13:33:44Z")
Keep in mind that X-Men is a shades of grey comic. There are mutant bad guys, and mutant good guys. There are human good guys and human bad guys. Much of the conflict has to do with the human population being frightened of the mutant population - some of them enough to wish to see the mutants destroyed. There is a reason we got the Magneto concentration camp backstory - some people in the government (those working for Stryker) are to be compared to Nazi’s. Some humans are to be compared to the civilian population who supported the Holocaust. And some are to be compared to those who hid Jews at the risk of their own lives. So, when Indiana Jones takes out Nazi’s in Raiders - many of them just soldiers following orders - is that morally ambigious? Some people believe a war has already started between mutants and humans, if you participate in the war as a soldier (as either the soliders raiding the school or Logan does) is it murder? A more qualified comic geek can correct me, but the Canadian connection is true to the comic books. Keep in mind that continuity and logic are not necessarily comic book priorities ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/77 "2003-05-19T13:52:25Z")
Regardless of what positive spin we put on the X-Men, the school WAS a base for a paramilitary strike force! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Bongo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a9adbd/32.png) [@Winston\_Bongo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Bongo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/78 "2003-05-20T07:13:18Z")
Now THIS is an interesting development. I have now read in two seperate places – **Wizard** magazine and now in a movie review on [Arizona Central](http://http://www.azcentral.com/ent/movies/articles/0502xmen02.html) – that at least some of the promotional literature from **X2** is trying to make it appear as if Wolverine does NOT kill anyone in the film. As the reviewer says of the mansion attack sequence, “The producers insist the bad guys will recover, but getting run through by razor blades can’t be good.” The producers insist? I’d wonder where he pulled that from if I hadn’t read a similar thing in **Wizard’s** X-Men issue a few weeks back. I don’t have it with me now, but it was mentioned in the article “Top Ten Reasons X2 Will Be Better Than X-Men.” One of them was that Wolverine _almost_ kills people . . . with the somewhat disappointed addition that, despite appearances, he actually only maims and wounds them. Has anybody else heard about this bit of apparent spin control by the producers? What is its source? And if it is true, do they truly expect us to believe Logan didn’t kill anyone? I mean _come on_ – if those guys survived that slicing and dicing, they must have had adamantium bones themselves! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/79 "2003-05-20T13:48:00Z")
And let’s not forget that Stryker’s right hand man was Death! (little Highlander series reference) Technically, the reason that the soldiers died was because the other x-men were gone. None of them would have been as able to use lethal force. That’s what Logan was built to do. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738/80 "2003-05-20T18:13:05Z")
The claws were going right through people’s chests. No way they survived! Especially the guy in the kitchen! There’s no way you shove that much metal in a guy’s chest and miss every vital organ. Heck, there was no way to evac that guy right away, so he would have bled to death. I reject this argument by the weak kneed producers! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/x2-debate-is-wolverine-a-murderer-spoilers/175738.md?page=5)