Xbox 360 games similar to Oblivion and Fable II?

[Jihi]

@cromulent

Not to derail the thread, but what exactly is the difference between JRPGs and non-JRPGs? Aside from the fact that one is translated from Japanese, of course.

JRPGs tend to follow Japanese storytelling and gameplaying conventions. Generally you’ll have a small group of predetermined heroes who’s personalities and fighting skills tend to balance each other out. Usually there’s no way to customize your characters as they gain in levels as all of that is prescripted. The storyline is usually very linear with no choices and it all kind of plays out like a movie or a TV show. Eternal Sonata is a JRPG.

The worlds that are created in JRPGs tend to be detailed and intricate with well developed characters and generally good writing. The plots tend to be long with lots of twists and turns as you progress through the game. The tradeoff though is freedom and customizability.

Non-JRPGs, or (W)estern RPGs, tend toward wide open, explorable worlds. They can feel bigger than JRPGs because there’s more “real estate” that can be directly traveled through. Small parties can be common, but so can the lone hero which you almost never see in a JRPG. Oblivion, Fallout, and Fable 2 all have loner hero characters who are heavily customizable and all have moral decisions which affect the flow the story. The plots tend to be less intricate and they tend to paint in “broad strokes”, if that makes any sense. The reason for this of course is because the pivotal moments in the stories tend to have more than one outcome.

One interesting thing to note about WRPG’s is that they tend to have lots of sidequests, and just things to do which have no direct bearing on the main plot. The property management options in Fable 2 is a good example of this. In Bethesda RPGs, (Oblivion/Fallout), you can shoot straight through the main quest, but if you do that you wind up missing a lot of the actual content.

So, to sum up, in WRPGs you tend to get lots of customization options and large, open, freely explorable worlds, but lose some the finer details of characterization and storytelling.

Caveats: These are only broad rules of thumb and may not apply to any particular game, as there has been a lot of cross pollination between Japanese and Western developers. Also, I want to make it clear that I don’t think one is better than another. They’re just different design philosophies.

[Jihi]

@Kobal2

Not that one is better than the other, it’s just a different feel.

I see I’m not the only who wished to avoid that well particularly traveled argument.

[Airk]

@Kobal2

Not the same gameplay mechanics.

As a general rule, a “regular” RPG will be open ended, and will offer the player many ways to create and tweak his character(s), different paths to do the quests, as well as choose the order in which he does them. Also, the combats tend to be with creatures/enemies one can see, avoid, talk to etc…

They also tend to be “story lite”, in that there are a few spots in the game where you bump into the story, but due to the fact that the player has free choice, you can run around for very long periods of time without interacting with anything that might be referred to as “plot”. Western RPGs are much more sandbox and much less story. They tend to allow you to customize your playable character in terms of skills and abilities and sometimes even influence their behavior, but generally not in a fashion that actually influences the story. (There are exceptions, but usually it’s “you picked the good guy path!” or “you picked the bad guy path”) Additionally, as has been pointed out, you’re very frequently a “sole protagonist”.

By contrast, you don’t have much choice in JRPGs : the story is on rails, the dialogue and characters are pre-written, and you’re pretty much forced to go from point A to point B for 90% of the game (and there’s usually a dungeon between point A and point B). Also, the combats are usually random (except for bosses), they just happen as you walk around, at which point the game pauses and turn-based combat mode starts.

This is a outdated evalutation of JRPGs however. Most current generation JRPGs have visible monsters in the same way that western games do - though it’s true that in most JRPGs (setting aside “action RPGs”, which, it might be argued, includes most Western RPGs), battle is a different view and method of play than general exploration. I was going to put up links to examples, but Youtube is erroring out for me right now, so, nevermind.

Additionally, in most good JRPGs, there are large periods of the game where you are free to go wherever you want and talk to people/do quests/hunt monsters or whatever you like. Indeed, many recent JRPGs have as much “sidequest” content as “main” content - by which I mean if you rush through the main plot of the game, you may finish in, oh, 35 hours or something, but if you stop at all possible points to pursue sidequests, you might play for 70 hours.

Of course, there are sections where there really is only one place you can go. But then, you get those in Western games too, though the method used to enforce it is often different (JRPGs are big fans of ‘impassable terrain’ whereas in Western games, it’s more likely to be “sure, you can go here, but the first monster you see will kick your ass, so it’s not really viable.”)

Note that these are of course just general guidelines, not all RPGs or JRPGs will be like that, but I think that’ll give you a good idea. In essence, an RPG plays like you’re playing a role you choose*, a JRPG plays like you’re watching a movie. Not that one is better than the other, it’s just a different feel.

Well, aside from some outdated impressions JRPG conventions, this is correct.

[Airk]

Okay; YouTube lives again.

Tales of Vesperia: ‘overland and combat’ Combats occur at 4:30, 5:45, 7:00, and possibly elsewhere. Gives you an idea of visible monsters with a seperate “battle mode”

Combat in Oblivion. Note the seamlessness - there’s no battle gamplay vs non-battle gameplay other than the visible weapon and a change in music. You’ll also note the 1st person perspective, a common feature of western games in general lately.

[Kobal2]

@Airk

Additionally, in most good JRPGs, there are large periods of the game where you are free to go wherever you want and talk to people/do quests/hunt monsters or whatever you like. Indeed, many recent JRPGs have as much “sidequest” content as “main” content - by which I mean if you rush through the main plot of the game, you may finish in, oh, 35 hours or something, but if you stop at all possible points to pursue sidequests, you might play for 70 hours.

I know, which is why I said “90% of the time”. As in coding, the last 10% take the *other *90% of the time :D. But usually, the majority of those optional quests only open up after you’ve already travelled through the entire gameworld and/or have access to the Very Final No Honest This Time Dungeon, or can’t be finished until then (so you might as well not bother starting them sooner). At least, it was that way in all of the JRPGs I played (Wild Arms 4 & 5, Shadow Hearts 1, 2 & 3, a whole bunch of Final Fantasies and Shin Megami Tenseis…)

Of course, there are sections where there really is only one place you can go. But then, you get those in Western games too, though the method used to enforce it is often different (JRPGs are big fans of ‘impassable terrain’ whereas in Western games, it’s more likely to be “sure, you can go here, but the first monster you see will kick your ass, so it’s not really viable.”)

WRPGs are not immune to the Broken Bridge Syndrome Quite litteraly sometimes. See : the titular city in Baldur’s Gate. “Sorry, you haven’t solved the iron crisis yet, we can’t afford to let anyone enter or leave the city”. How does the city eat if no one enters or leaves, FFS ?! I spent like 4 months traipsing around the country before I got around to checking that iron thing out… y’all got acres of wheat fields on the rooftops or something ?

[Airk]

@Kobal2

I know, which is why I said “90% of the time”. As in coding, the last 10% take the *other *90% of the time :D.

Hah! Touche!

But usually, the majority of those optional quests only open up after you’ve already travelled through the entire gameworld and/or have access to the Very Final No Honest This Time Dungeon, or can’t be finished until then (so you might as well not bother starting them sooner).

Actually, it’s generally a good idea to start sidequests as soon as they become available, otherwise you risk becoming a victim of Missable Content. :smack:

At least, it was that way in all of the JRPGs I played (Wild Arms 4 & 5, Shadow Hearts 1, 2 & 3, a whole bunch of Final Fantasies and Shin Megami Tenseis…)

Impressively, we have nearly zero JRPG overlap; I only played Wild Arms ACF, and the only SMT games I’ve played are P3 and P4, which… kinda don’t really have sidequests in the traditional sense. All of my FF experience involves occasionally watching someone else play.

WRPGs are not immune to the Broken Bridge Syndrome Quite litteraly sometimes. See : the titular city in Baldur’s Gate. “Sorry, you haven’t solved the iron crisis yet, we can’t afford to let anyone enter or leave the city”. How does the city eat if no one enters or leaves, FFS ?! I spent like 4 months traipsing around the country before I got around to checking that iron thing out… y’all got acres of wheat fields on the rooftops or something ?

It’s the D&D universe, they just have a lot of lowbie priests with Create Food.

But yeah. Still, WRPGs don’t usually do the whole “You are limited to this small area until you get The Boat” thing. In fact, while I’m a little out of touch, I don’t think there’s been ocean travel in an WRPG in while.

[Anaamika]

@Jihi

I want to second Eternal Sonata. One of the more bizarre stories without a doubt with an interesting battle system that I’m having problems thinking of ways to describe. It’s sort a hybrid real time/turn based system with a time limit applied to each characters turn. Certainly one of the more unique systems out there.

The characters though are absolutely charming in a way I haven’t seen in a long time. Highly recommended.

All except for that stupid little mouthy girl with the southern accent. I felt sorry for Southerners, having to count this litte bitch amongst their ranks. And then they put her in every goddamn cut scene, because obviously they thought she was cute. I wanted to throttle her.
ETA: Tho I still really liked the game.

[Pithy_Moniker]

@Anaamika

All except for that stupid little mouthy girl with the southern accent. I felt sorry for Southerners, having to count this litte bitch amongst their ranks. And then they put her in every goddamn cut scene, because obviously they thought she was cute. I wanted to throttle her.
ETA: Tho I still really liked the game.

Well, it was such a bad southern accent that I laughed like a loon just about every time she said, “Well now… that kinda hurt!”

[Jihi]

@Pithy_Moniker

Well, it was such a bad southern accent that I laughed like a loon just about every time she said, “Well now… that kinda hurt!”

Heh, Salsa was a brat but that was part of her charm. I had her in my party for long stretches just cause I liked listening to her. And she was so hilariously out of place with that accent.

[Jragon]

@Airk

Actually, it’s generally a good idea to start sidequests as soon as they become available, otherwise you risk becoming a victim of Missable Content. :smack:

One thing I notice about JRPGs is that there tends to be a lot more missable content, and I like to keep guides open for them more than WRPGs because they tend to be hidden in completely asinine ways. To exaggerate a bit, a typical JRPG infinity +1 weapon acquisition seems to go like this: talk to some nondescript person about her cat, then 3 chapters later talk to the guy by the boat and go kill a bear for some fucking reason, now use his claw on an altar just before the last boss of the next dungeon.

@Jihi

Heh, Salsa was a brat but that was part of her charm. I had her in my party for long stretches just cause I liked listening to her. And she was so hilariously out of place with that accent.

No kidding, Salsa was one of my favorites, hell I tended to replace Viola with her just to handicap myself (I’m sorry, but Viola is waywaywaywayway broken) just because she was so cool. Not that she’s a lightweight hitter if used right (or maybe she is, I don’t keep up with RPG metagame character analysis), but whatever.

[Gukumatz]

@Jragon

One thing I notice about JRPGs is that there tends to be a lot more missable content, and I like to keep guides open for them more than WRPGs because they tend to be hidden in completely asinine ways. To exaggerate a bit, a typical JRPG infinity +1 weapon acquisition seems to go like this: talk to some nondescript person about her cat, then 3 chapters later talk to the guy by the boat and go kill a bear for some fucking reason, now use his claw on an altar just before the last boss of the next dungeon.

Yeah, no kidding. Final Fantasy XII was particularly egregious; if you opened any one of three specific treasure chests (which you have been conditioned to open religiously), the Ultimate Weapon (of Doom) was completely unattainable. There was absolutely zero indication within the game that this was the case. Zilch. The only possible way you could have figured it out would be to have read a strategy guide on the net or having bought one.

Man, it’s been two years and that STILL pisses me off.

[Kobal2]

@Gukumatz

Yeah, no kidding. Final Fantasy XII was particularly egregious; if you opened any one of three specific treasure chests (which you have been conditioned to open religiously), the Ultimate Weapon (of Doom) was completely unattainable. There was absolutely zero indication within the game that this was the case. Zilch. The only possible way you could have figured it out would be to have read a strategy guide on the net or having bought one.

Man, it’s been two years and that STILL pisses me off.

Not a 100% true : there’s another chest much later in the game that has like 0.05% chance of spawning everytime your enter the zone, and 0.00001% chance of the chest holding that ultimate spear if opened without the “better stuff in chests” item equipped. So it’s possible to get it the hard way, assuming you don’t mind spending 70+ hours reloading a savegame over and over and over again.

However, that’s of course nitpicking - there’s a reason TVTrope’s section on Guide Dang It has so many examples.
It’s even worse when not only X is only attainable by totally random sequences of events, but you only get one shot at it (whether X is a powerful item or spell, a character, a cutscene or some sort of locked content). Like those early Sierra adventure games where you could play through 90% of the game, but couldn’t finish the game if you’d missed a completely random item in the first few scenes :smack:. I couldn’t begin to express the intensity of my loathing of Lost Forevers.

I think the one that pissed me off the most was in Final Fantasy X-2. The game makes very clear from the get go that you’re free to pick whichever side you want in the ongoing conflict without serious repercussions (hell, it’s even boasted on the game’s cover). However, unless you finish the game with a 100% completion score, you miss out on a funny and very powerful character class which is about undispensable to complete the optional, hardcore end-game sidequests. You can only get 100% if you side with the Youth League, because that’s the only way to have access to a meaningless, random miniquest that still gives 2 or 3%. NERD RAGE!

[Airk]

Yeah, FF games are pretty notorious for that. Indeed, I’d go so far as to say that they give the rest of the genre a bad name in that department.

Tales games, for example, while they do feature missable content, tend to have more of missable costumes or just…character building events. Ultimate weapons tend not to be missable.

[Jihi]

@Jragon

No kidding, Salsa was one of my favorites, hell I tended to replace Viola with her just to handicap myself (I’m sorry, but Viola is waywaywaywayway broken) just because she was so cool. Not that she’s a lightweight hitter if used right (or maybe she is, I don’t keep up with RPG metagame character analysis), but whatever.

Okay, let’s see if anyone agrees with me on this…

Speaking of Viola, a big difference I’ve noticed between JRPGs and WRPGs is the “character specific rule”.

In WRPGs the battle system tends to be laid out early and all the characters and enemies tend to follow the system to the letter. If a particular character is supposed to be really strong then he has a really high “strength” stat.

In JRPGs this could mean he has a powerful weapon, or an abnormally high ability “to hit” the enemies or a damage modifier. Or one of a hundred different other modifications.

In the case of Viola and her bow in Eternal Sonata I quickly latched onto the fact that distance=damage. A rule that didn’t apply to Beat and his gun. Because of this when I used her I tended to move her to the edge of the battle map on her first turn and take shots at the enemy on her subsequent turns while keeping her as far away as possible. I also tended to make sure she was in the party for boss battles.

[Airk]

That’s an interesting point. WRPGs definitely tend to be more internally uniform with their systems. There’s a ‘magic system’ and a ‘combat system’ and maybe a “skill system” or something for thieves. The characters you get will have more or less particular aptitude for various aspects of one or the other.

JRPGs, on the other hand, are more likely to design an entire system PER CHARACTER, so that rules that apply to one don’t even begin to factor in for someone else. You might have one character whose schtick is launching the enemy up into the air and keeping them there and another whose abilities are dictated by which playing cards you’ve managed to find during the course of the game. Even in the most “generic” JRPGs, each character is all but guaranteed to have a techique (or list of techniques) which are distinctly theirs that no one else can learn.

On the one hand the JRPG method means that each character really has more of their own feel and value (or lack thereof) rather than being a “a bit more fightery than character A and a bit less magey than character B”. On the other hand, it can lead to suspension of disbelief issues (“Why can’t my other swordsman learn that?”) - though I submit that if -this- is what jars you out of your suspension of disbelief, your priorities may be a little odd - to some characters being run away good (if the game is balanced poorly), or to the Really Annoying Character also being critically useful. I could see it also bothering people on a “it’s like learning six different game systems” level.

Honestly though, I prefer the JRPG method here - for the same reason it’s fun to play a fighting game with characters with interesting and unique movesets, it’s more fun to play an RPG with a bunch of characters that do different and interesting things instead of being differentiated solely on Str/Dex/Int and weapon.

[born_too_late]

You could try the Star Ocean game they made exclusive for XBox. I played the previous ones on Playstation, and they were good. Involved and intricate. The stories were very Japanese-y, though. I was disappointed when I found out it was only for XBox, and I haven’t played it yet, but I’ve gotten an Xbox since then and I’ll probably get it after I finish the games I’m playing now.

[Airk]

@born_too_late

You could try the Star Ocean game they made exclusive for XBox. I played the previous ones on Playstation, and they were good. Involved and intricate. The stories were very Japanese-y, though. I was disappointed when I found out it was only for XBox, and I haven’t played it yet, but I’ve gotten an Xbox since then and I’ll probably get it after I finish the games I’m playing now.

I hear good things, except that the voice acting is apparently terrible.

[Page_Fault]

@Airk

I hear good things, except that the voice acting is apparently terrible.

This is par for the course for Star Ocean games. Though 4 seems to be, if anything, even worse due to some quirky characters with some terrible dialogue. Gamewise though, the game isn’t bad at all.