# Xema and Crafter Man, you sick fucks **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 25, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134 "2005-03-25T02:35:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/101 "2005-03-25T19:09:55Z")
I some people are missing an important point. “Feral” cat is a misnomer. Cats weren’t magically concieved in someones den. They started out in the wild and they still exist in the wild. Some have become domesticated and some are still out there where they started out. They are part of the ecosystem, not intruders. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/102 "2005-03-25T19:14:01Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > They are part of the ecosystem, not intruders. Just like kudzu! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/103 "2005-03-25T19:16:32Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > I some people are missing an important point. “Feral” cat is a misnomer. Cats weren’t magically concieved in someones den. They started out in the wild and they still exist in the wild. Some have become domesticated and some are still out there where they started out. They are part of the ecosystem, not intruders. True also for human beings. We started out in the wild. We are part of the ecosystem, not intruders. Right? (Not sure what point this makes, but it sounds profound, somehow.) ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/104 "2005-03-25T19:23:10Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > Also I’d like to point out that the very fact that **Xema** wants to hide the killing from the neighbors proves that he/she knows how wrong it is. You are incorrect, sir. **Xema** specifically stated he wanted to do it on the down/low to avoid disturbing neighborhood tranquility. It proves nothing about whether he “knows” it is wrong. For those who say drowning nuisance feral cats is animal cruelty, I would be interesting in seeing a cite where someone was successfully prosecuted. I’m not saying it’s a pleasant end for the cat, but I’m not convinced it’s torture. Taking a feral cat to a vet for euthanasia may not always be feasible, in which case what methods of killing are acceptable/not cruel? Carbon monoxide? ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/105 "2005-03-25T19:23:37Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Just like kudzu! And [cane toads](http://www.fdrproject.org/pages/toads.htm), don’t forget them! ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/106 "2005-03-25T19:30:19Z")
> [@neuroman](#): > > \For those who say drowning nuisance feral cats is animal cruelty, I would be interesting in seeing a cite where someone was successfully prosecuted. I’m not saying it’s a pleasant end for the cat, but I’m not convinced it’s torture. Taking a feral cat to a vet for euthanasia may not always be feasible, in which case what methods of killing are acceptable/not cruel? Carbon monoxide? I’ll look for a cite, however I did have a farmer tell me here in Kansas, that he was allowed to “humanely” shoot a nuisance animal in the head (other than rats/mice) and quickly end it’s life, (presumably after trapping it?) poisoning it or drowning wasn’t allowed by law. I don’t know about the other states, and notice I specified “farmer”. I do seem to remember being shown statutes covering this issue though, and as I recall they did specify the way in which you were allowed to kill the nuiscance animal. (Not just feral cats too btw.) Basically you have to give it a quick death, with as little pain and suffering as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/107 "2005-03-25T19:38:01Z")
For the record, I acknowledge that feral cat colonies are a serious problem, not least because of the devastation they inflict on wildlife. While I’ve thought a great deal about TNR programs versus trap-and-kill programs, I’ve never been able to make up my mind about which one is kinder or more effective. However, if the T&K programs are best, they **must** use a humane form of euthanasia: either tightly-controlled CO euthanasia on adult animals, or (far preferred by the AVMA, HSUS, AHA, and so forth) an intravenal injection of sodium pentobarbitol. Drowning is NOT euthanasia: it’s an extremely stressful and terrifying means of death for the animal. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/108 "2005-03-25T19:45:12Z")
> [@neuroman](#): > > For those who say drowning nuisance feral cats is animal cruelty, I would be interesting in seeing a cite where someone was successfully prosecuted. I’m not saying it’s a pleasant end for the cat, but I’m not convinced it’s torture. Taking a feral cat to a vet for euthanasia may not always be feasible, in which case what methods of killing are acceptable/not cruel? Carbon monoxide? [Cite 1](http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/1963/CA/US/1) [Cite 2](http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/2013/CA/US/1) Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/109 "2005-03-25T19:49:29Z")
**Left Hand of Dorkness** I’m correct in recalling that city dwellers aren’t allowed to kill nuiscance animals in most cases, aren’t I? They have to take them to the pound or a shelter to be dealt with. Am I correct in thinking that is true pretty much “across the board” in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/110 "2005-03-25T19:55:25Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > **Left Hand of Dorkness** I’m correct in recalling that city dwellers aren’t allowed to kill nuiscance animals in most cases, aren’t I? They have to take them to the pound or a shelter to be dealt with. Am I correct in thinking that is true pretty much “across the board” in the US? I’m not sure about that, **Zabali** ; while I’ve got a fair-to-middling handle on the laws in my jurisdiction, I’m really not sure what they are in most jurisdictions. According to the [Animal Protection Institute](http://www.api4animals.org/47.htm), 41 states have felony animal cruelty laws. All 50 states have some animal cruelty laws. No state, as far as I’m aware, contains an exemption for feral cats in these laws. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/111 "2005-03-25T20:07:34Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > [Cite 1](http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/1963/CA/US/1) > > [Cite 2](http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/2013/CA/US/1) Thank you. I wonder if these cases violated the “cruel death” clause (2) in the [Florida laws](http://www.animal-law.org/statutes/florida.htm), or the “unnecessary death” clause (1.) If it’s 1 and not 2 because of these cases being inside city limits, then I’d think that in rural areas drowning would still be legal. Either way, I’ll agree that drowning isn’t a good solution. If injection isn’t viable, carbon monoxide or a gunshot to the head, brutal as it may sound, would mean less suffering for the animal. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/112 "2005-03-25T20:17:51Z")
> [@neuroman](#): > > Thank you. I wonder if these cases violated the “cruel death” clause (2) in the [Florida laws](http://www.animal-law.org/statutes/florida.htm), or the “unnecessary death” clause (1.) If it’s 1 and not 2 because of these cases being inside city limits, then I’d think that in rural areas drowning would still be legal. This confused me at first, until I realized that your first point was about the second clause, and your second point was about the first clause. D’oh! At any rate, I’d be very surprised to find a prosecutor who would prosecute drowning under “unnecessary death” but NOT under “cruel death.” Drowning is, as I said before, an extremely frightening process for an animal, and takes place over minutes. Preferred methods of euthanasia (injection, carbon monoxide) cause no stress in the animal, except for the minimal stress incurred by handling the animal in some cases. Even shooting an animal, if done properly, causes instantaneous death. One question: given that both of these cites are from California, why are you asking about Florida’s law? I’m sure there’s an obvious answer to this question, but I’m not seeing it. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/113 "2005-03-25T20:27:10Z")
> [@Amazon Floozy Goddess](#): > > if someone’s indoor pet had escaped, it may very well have not have a collar. I know several people whose indoor cats don’t wear collars. So it’s entirely possible he could have killed someone’s pet. That’s a very good reason for even indoor cats to have collars, with the name of the owner, address and phone number on them. It’s the _owner’s_ responsibilty to take precautions to ensure that their pet a) doesn’t get out; b) if it does get out, it can be returned or at least identified as a pet. If a cat is causing problems and doesn’t have a collar, then it’s fair game to be treated as a stray or feral. And I would guess that a very large percentage of collarless cats seen roaming about are ownerless, and not someone’s escaped indoor cat. > [@jimpatro](#): > > I some people are missing an important point. “Feral” cat is a misnomer. Cats weren’t magically concieved in someones den. They started out in the wild and they still exist in the wild. Some have become domesticated and some are still out there where they started out. They are part of the ecosystem, not intruders. They’re still out there in the wild in North Africa. Feral domestic cats are not a natural part of the North American ecosystem. I have no problem with bobcats or lynx killing wildlife. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/114 "2005-03-25T20:35:52Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > I some people are missing an important point. “Feral” cat is a misnomer. Cats weren’t magically concieved in someones den. They started out in the wild and they still exist in the wild. Some have become domesticated and some are still out there where they started out. They are part of the ecosystem, not intruders. Yeah, but not really in the US, where I’m assuming that the subjects of the OP are. Domesticated cats are descended from an African wildcat, and I’m pretty sure that there aren’t any cats native to North America smaller than the bobcat, and I doubt **Xema’s** neighbors are feeding wild bobcats. It’s more likely that the cats that have been a nuisance to **Xema** are feral…that is to say that they’re either escaped domesticated cats or descended from escaped domesticated cats. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/115 "2005-03-25T20:44:56Z")
> [@neuroman](#): > > You are incorrect, sir. **Xema** specifically stated he wanted to do it on the down/low to avoid disturbing neighborhood tranquility. It proves nothing about whether he “knows” it is wrong. But then he knows that those cats are important to someone, and those people would miss the cats if they were gone. If killing “feral” cats was so universally normal and acceptable he wouldn’t try to hide it. People don’t kill mice on the DL, do they? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/116 "2005-03-25T20:54:23Z")
Wow, looks like I’m late to the party. A stray cat is no different from a rat in my book, yet I suspect I would not have been pitted had I disposed of the latter in a similar manner. But because cats are considered “cute” and “lovable” by some, I am hence labeled a deranged psychopath. :rolleyes: Did my disposal of the cats help solve the problem? Yes. Did I enjoy it? No. Would I do it again? Yes. Why it even raises an eyebrow is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/117 "2005-03-25T20:57:58Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Why it even raises an eyebrow is beyond me. You missed that whole business about its being a felony, huh? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/118 "2005-03-25T21:00:10Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Drowning is, as I said before, an extremely frightening process for an animal, and takes place over minutes. Preferred methods of euthanasia (injection, carbon monoxide) cause no stress in the animal, except for the minimal stress incurred by handling the animal in some cases. Even shooting an animal, if done properly, causes instantaneous death. I have found that shooting is the preferred method when an animal is not caged. Shooting is less convenient when the animal is caged, as it is necessary to clean the cage afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/119 "2005-03-25T21:05:17Z")
My fault–in your state, animal cruelty is a misdemeanor, not a felony. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134/120 "2005-03-25T21:07:06Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Why it even raises an eyebrow is beyond me. Hence the “sick fuck” label… It has been explained to you several times in this thread that death by drowning is a brutal and terrifying way to “dispose of” an animal. Any animal, cat, rat, human or otherwise. That you can’t fathom that people, even those who agree with you that feral cats are nuisances and ought to be killed, would be upset that you chose a method of killing guaranteed to cause great terror and suffering is what’s beyond me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xema-and-crafter-man-you-sick-fucks/296134.md?page=7)