# XENA fans: would the show have been better if the X/G relationship had been explicitly sexual? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 21, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291 "2010-05-21T19:38:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/21 "2010-05-21T22:14:43Z")
I only saw that show once, so I voted Yes. Yes because, ahem, that show was so unbelievable bad, like watching a 70s Saturday morning kid’s show, almost as bad as those stupid monster TV movies The SyFy Channel makes, that the only reason it should have existed was as an excuse to show softcore porn. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/22 "2010-05-21T22:40:35Z")
> [@](#): > > I have made a note of that, and the next time I pop over to Universal DVD Library world, I will get you the x-rated version of The Golden Girls. Same cast as we know from this world. Dude. A lesbian four-way. That would be so HAWT!!! ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/23 "2010-05-21T22:47:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Dude. A lesbian four-way. That would be so HAWT!!! A female lemon party! ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/24 "2010-05-21T23:23:30Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > I only saw that show once, so I voted Yes. Yes because, ahem, that show was so unbelievable bad, like watching a 70s Saturday morning kid’s show, almost as bad as those stupid monster TV movies The SyFy Channel makes, that the only reason it should have existed was as an excuse to show softcore porn. 😃 Xena was kind of hit and miss with the level of acting and relative “goodness” of the episodes. Some were bad and campy, some funny others just fun adventure and quite a few were deadly serious and emotionally heartbreaking. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/25 "2010-05-21T23:39:02Z")
Apropos of nothing, here’s [“Callisto,”](http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/callisto.htm) a filksong by Tom Smith. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/26 "2010-05-22T00:24:51Z")
**Skald** , am I correct in understanding that your question is not about whether we think the show would have been better if it had included X/G sex scenes, but rather whether we think the show would have been better if it had been made totally clear by any means (possibly just dialogue) that the characters did have sex? Oh, and are you asking whether we think it should have been made clear that they were a monogamous sexual couple and/or had sex on a regular basis, or just whether we think it should have been made clear that they’d had sex on at least one occasion? > [@Chronos](#): > > I was under the understanding that, later in the show’s run, it was made explicit (as in, unambiguous, not as in seeing naughty bits)? And I also thought it was pretty clear at the time that the rumors started that Gabrielle was still a virgin, though most fans apparently didn’t see the same coded message I did. As for the former, by the end of the series I think it was pretty clear that Xena and Gabrielle were meant to be understood as having a serious romantic relationship. There was even an episode where, no joke, Xena reads an actual love poem by Sappho to Gabrielle. What’s more, within the context of the show this poem is presented as being one that Xena commissioned as a gift for Gabrielle. So on the one hand I consider that a very obvious indication that they were a romantic couple, but I guess it’s not a _totally_ unambiguous sign that they had ever had sex. There’s still a teensy bit of wiggle room where someone might watch the scene and think “How touching that they’re such good friends.” As for the latter, Gabrielle was said to be a virgin in the first season episode “The Titans”. She accidentally wakes the sleeping Titans by reading a magic spell, and apparently only a virgin could do this. The Titans keep referring to her as a virgin, and she gets embarrassed and tells them this is personal information. This was early in the first season (episode 7 of 24 that season), so I don’t think there were a lot of subtexters at that point. Some viewers probably had ideas from the very first episode (Gabrielle does want to run away from an arranged marriage, and even says she can never be the kind of girl her parents want her to be!), but I don’t think there were deliberate hints on the part of the writers until a little later. In episode 19, “Altared States”, there’s a scene that looks like it’s going to be an X/G sex scene but isn’t. Anyway, by season three a priestess of the goddess Hestia is shocked to hear that Gabrielle _isn’t_ a virgin. Gabrielle says that she was married when she lost her virginity (she was briefly married to a man during season two; Callisto killed him). However, she also indicates that she’d find it difficult to give up sex to become a priestess so her sex life presumably didn’t end when her husband died. It’s not clear who, other than Xena, Gabrielle could have been having sex with since then, but they don’t actually tell the priestess that this is the case. So again there’s a teensy bit of ambiguity where the viewer might assume that Gabrielle has been occasionally hooking up with guys they meet on the road or has a “friends with benefits” arrangement with Iolaus or something. There’s also room to wonder what the characters meant by “virginity”. Traditionally, and to an extent even today, a woman could be considered a virgin if her hymen was intact and/or if a penis had never been in her vagina. So it’s possible that X&G were having all kinds of sexy fun together but that Gabrielle was still a “technical virgin” prior to her marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/27 "2010-05-23T04:37:51Z")
Well, which is better: Alfred Hitchcock’s _The Trouble with Harry_, or 1988’s _Akira_? While it might not have been _that_ extreme, a more explicit X/G relationship would have made Xena _different_, perhaps even too different to directly compare. On the other hand…y’know, lesbian sex. I believe I’m legally required to claim that that improves anything it’s added to. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/28 "2010-05-23T05:09:00Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > It’s not clear who, other than Xena, Gabrielle could have been having sex with since then, but they don’t actually tell the priestess that this is the case. So again there’s a teensy bit of ambiguity where the viewer might assume that Gabrielle has been occasionally hooking up with guys they meet on the road or has a “friends with benefits” arrangement with Iolaus or something… Joxer, size 8 1/2 inches- as Vonnegut said, you never know who’s gonna get one. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/29 "2010-05-23T06:41:06Z")
I think that they took it as far as was possible for the time, and went further than most would have expected. And it’s not like the show was overly torrid with the heterosexual pairings. And it’s not like it wasn’t self aware… ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/30 "2010-05-23T07:09:03Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > So again there’s a teensy bit of ambiguity where the viewer might assume that Gabrielle has been occasionally hooking up with guys they meet on the road or has a “friends with benefits” arrangement with Iolaus or something. Not to blab, but it wasn’t Iolaus. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/31 "2010-05-23T11:41:09Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Joxer, size 8 1/2 inches- as Vonnegut said, you never know who’s gonna get one. Joxer would be the most obvious candidate for a “friends with benefits” relationship, if only because he was always hanging around, but his behavior makes it clear he never got far with Gabrielle. That said, for such a doofus he did pretty well for himself. He eventually married Xena-lookalike Meg, and before that seemed popular with the ladies of negotiable virtue at Meg’s “tavern”. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/32 "2010-05-23T12:03:16Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Not to blab, but it wasn’t Iolaus. Sounds like the King of Thieves is trying to drop a really big hint here! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/33 "2010-05-23T12:55:34Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Not to blab, but it wasn’t Iolaus. Apart from the obvious joke, why **shouldn’t** it have been Iolaus? ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/34 "2010-05-23T13:18:27Z")
Imho, the relationship added or detracted nothing from or to the show. To me, it was an action-comedy show spinoff of the Hercules (Kevin Sorbo) franchise. I watched both for the fighting. The comedy was hit or miss (which I also categorize the subtexts.) Sadly, it was the death-knell for serious action TV shows like Marshall Law, Highlander, Mortal Kombat: The Series, etc. and new shows started leaning on the comedy, not the action, which lead to the dreck we have today. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/35 "2010-05-23T13:32:55Z")
And speaking of Kevin Sorbo, I do believe if Dylan Hunt and Tyr had a nice understanding on the Andromeda (as CLEARLY was a possibility if you read in between the lines)…I do believe I would need a new pair of panties a week. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/36 "2010-05-23T17:25:17Z")
I seem to remember an interview were Lawless explicitly stated that the writers had chosen to keep it ambiguous, and that she did not see them as more than friends. She considered them more like [heterosexual life partners](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeterosexualLifePartners). I think they had the perfect balance, where people who were homophobes (sadly including me at the time) wouldn’t notice, or could fanwank wgat they did. Anyways, since I’ve already given you one TVTropes link, I might as well link you their [page on the show](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XenaWarriorPrincess). I think they do a pretty good job of explaining this in the appropriate tropes. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/37 "2010-05-23T17:29:13Z")
Xena liked men. Early on, there was a romance between her and Hercules. She had other male lovers during the series. Was she bi-sexual? They never showed her muff diving. I guess what her and G did in the woods stayed in the woods. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/38 "2010-05-23T18:04:39Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I seem to remember an interview were Lawless explicitly stated that the writers had chosen to keep it ambiguous, and that she did not see them as more than friends. She considered them more like [heterosexual life partners](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeterosexualLifePartners). Not exactly. Throughout the run of the show Lawless and others involved with the series said it was deliberately ambiguous, and that viewers could decide for themselves what exactly the nature of X&G’s relationship was. I don’t believe Lawless ever said she considered them to be heterosexual, and I suspect she’d have been discouraged from saying so publicly even if she did think that. After the series ended she did say that the finale made it clear to her that X&G were essentially a married couple and that there was no longer room left to think that they were just good friends or that they fooled around sometimes but weren’t really serious about each other romantically. This interview doesn’t seem to be online anymore in its full form, but it’s quoted in the [Wikipedia article on the show](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xena_-_Warrior_Princess#Influence_on_the_lesbian_community). ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/39 "2010-05-23T18:55:49Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Apart from the obvious joke, why **shouldn’t** it have been Iolaus? I’m the son of Hermes, grandfather of Odysseus, and taught Hercules how to wrestle. Don’t let the mustache and razor-sharp wit fool you; Iolaus ain’t got shit on me. Besides, rumor has it he’s gay. Cite: > **[Autolycus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autolycus)** > > In Greek mythology, Autolycus (/ɔːˈtɒlɪkəs/; Ancient Greek: Αὐτόλυκος, romanized: Autólykos, lit. 'the wolf itself') was a robber who had the power to metamorphose or make invisible the things he stole. He had his residence on Mount Parnassus and was renowned among men for his cunning and oaths. > There are a number of different accounts of the birth of Autolycus. According to most, he was the son of Hermes and Chione or Philonis. In Ovid's version, Autolycus was conceived after Hermes had interco... > **[Iolaus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iolaus)** > > In Greek mythology, Iolaus (/aɪoʊˈleɪəs/; Ancient Greek: Ἰόλαος Iólāos) was a Theban divine hero. He was famed for being Heracles's charioteer and squire, and for helping with some of his Labors, as well as for being one of the Argonauts. > Iolaus was the son of Iphicles and Automedusa, daughter of King Alcathous of Megara. According to Plutarch, Heracles gave his wife, Megara, age thirty three, to Iolaus, then only sixteen years old. According to Pausanias, who cites Hesiod as the source, they ha... ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291/40 "2010-05-23T19:13:46Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Sadly, it was the death-knell for serious action TV shows like Marshall Law, Highlander, Mortal Kombat: The Series, etc. and new shows started leaning on the comedy, not the action, which lead to the dreck we have today. Do you mean syndicated action shows? Because Jack Bauer would respectfully disagree that there’s no action left on TV. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xena-fans-would-the-show-have-been-better-if-the-x-g-relationship-had-been-explicitly-sexual/540291.md?page=3)