# ­xkcd thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** comic-strips\ **Created:** [May 28, 2020, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574 "2020-05-28T00:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 216
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2025, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4303 "2025-05-15T12:10:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Academic gatekeeping? I think we have a winner. I mean, if we can sing a hymn that waa obvoiusly written pre-vowel shift, then Joe Undergrad should be able to grok a modern transliteration of Chaucer. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2025, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4304 "2025-05-16T00:21:30Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > That doesn’t explain the use of all of the old spellings, like “swalwe” for “swallow”. In any case, English spelling at that time was not a reliable guide to pronunciation. My impression is that spelling reflected pronunciation until the printing press locked spelling mid-vowel-shift (while pronunciation continued to drift). I agree with your larger point - use modern spelling for Chaucer (except for linguistics classes) ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2025, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4305 "2025-05-16T00:24:52Z")
> [@Maus\_Magill](#): > > if we can sing a hymn that waa obvoiusly written pre-vowel shift We got a rhotic S now? ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2025, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4306 "2025-05-16T00:38:07Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I’m pretty sure the long-s was pronounced like the modern s, not as an f. “Life, liberty, and the purfuit of happineff”?! ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2025, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4307 "2025-05-16T00:42:56Z")
I’m not up on the rules for when one used long-s versus short-s. I do know that words could contain both. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2025, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4308 "2025-05-16T01:03:35Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > A bliſſe in proofe and proud and very wo, > Before a ioy propoſd behind a dreame. Note that the long s is not an f. It lacks the crossbar. I think it was used as a terminal to a syllable, never as an initial. @Fretful_Porpentine likely knows the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2025, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4309 "2025-05-16T04:17:42Z")
The long S definitely appears at the beginning of words at least some of the time – there John Donne’s “The Flea” is engaging in some visual punning with the words “suck” and “fuck” in [the second image on this page](https://library.chethams.com/collections/101-treasures-of-chethams/john-donnes-poems/), for example, and I think other poets also make the same joke! I think you’re right that you _most_ often see the long S in the middle of words, and almost never at the end, though, and I suspect it has something to do with the practicalities of typesetting and making sure the letters aren’t crowding or knocking into each other. > [@markn\_1](#): > > I don’t really understand why this is routinely done for Shakespeare but very few editions of Chaucer’s works take this approach. The original spelling matters if you’re going to read Chaucer out loud – “swalwe” from your example would be pronounced “SWAL-wuh” rather than “swallow,” and “koude” and “make” both need to be pronunced with two syllables (KOO-duh and MAH-kuh) for the meter to work. This isn’t an issue with Shakespeare, because our silent Es were silent for him as well. With _prose_ works from Chaucer’s era, like this e-text of [Julian of Norwich](https://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/1343-1398,_Julian._of_Norwich,_Revelations_Of_Divine_Love,_EN.pdf), editors sometimes do modernize spelling. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2025, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4310 "2025-05-16T21:49:49Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > “Life, liberty, and the purfuit of happineff”?! Yeah, I heard that bit, too. And, that’s the only thing I remember, including the name and the artist. ETA: Google is your friend. Stan Freeberg Presents the United States of America. Should have remembered that. Love Freeberg. It ain’t Christmas without Green Chri$tma$! ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2025, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4311 "2025-05-17T05:47:41Z")
> **[Sail Physics](https://xkcd.com/3090/)** [![](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sail_physics.png) ](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sail_physics.png) “Turning in other directions can be accomplished by using a magnetized centerboard and ocean currents, since a current flowing through a magnetic field induces a Laplace force.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4312 "2025-05-19T22:24:11Z")
> **[Renormalization](https://xkcd.com/#:~:text=https%3A//xkcd.com/3091/)** [![](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/renormalization.png) ](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/renormalization.png) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4313 "2025-05-19T22:39:47Z")
Title text: > Applying renormalization to bullies successfully transformed Pete & Pete’s Endless Mike into Finite Mike. Ooh! Loving how esoteric this one is. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4314 "2025-05-22T04:21:42Z")
> **[Baker's Units](https://xkcd.com/3092/)** [![](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/bakers_units.png) ](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/bakers_units.png) “169 is a baker’s gross.” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4315 "2025-05-22T04:28:48Z")
In the old days, you would pay for a baker’s dozen with a baker’s shilling, which was worth 13 pence. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4316 "2025-05-22T08:14:15Z")
Makes about as much sense as the guinea – 21 shillings. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4317 "2025-05-22T08:19:23Z")
That’s what made me think of it, but off the top of my head I wasn’t sure if it was 20+1 or 12+1, so I thought maybe they already had a “baker’s X” in the currency. Ridiculous in any case! Sorta funny how the US had one of the first decimalized currencies, back when the UK still had their absurd system. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4318 "2025-05-22T11:31:58Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Sorta funny how the US had one of the first decimalized currencies, back when the UK still had their absurd system. And then decided never to use decimal systems ever again. ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4319 "2025-05-22T12:48:56Z")
I would think a Bakers New Years Eve would be better as Dec 32nd ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4320 "2025-05-22T12:52:28Z")
Alfred E. Neuman: > If a “baker’s dozen” is thirteen, is a “politician’s dozen” eleven? ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4321 "2025-05-22T12:59:01Z")
In the more arcane corners of poetry studies, you’ll find the “poulter’s measure,” which alternates lines of 12 and 14 syllables. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574/4322 "2025-05-22T14:56:09Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Makes about as much sense as the guinea – 21 shillings. The guinea was a _coin_, not a unit of money. Long story short they got minted for convenience in foreign trade but ended up circulating domestically. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574.md?page=215) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xkcd-thread/854574.md?page=217)