# Xmas and the First Amendment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973 "2012-12-24T02:15:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/42 "2012-12-24T18:27:15Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Since I last posted, I drove 100 miles and noticed several roadsigns (sponsored by the Knights of Columbus) exhorting us to “keep Christ in Christmas.” To me, they might as say “Fuck the Constitution” though the courts feel differently, and with amazingly blatent hypocrisy. Seriously? I think those signs, and the sentiment they espouse, are stupid as shit, but how is an exhortation by and (presumably) to Christians saying “Fuck the Constitution”? It’s not like the government put up those signs, nor are they directed at the government. “Under God” and “In God we trust,” now _those_ are government endorsement of religion. Giving people December 25 off? There’s a perfectly secular reason–I’m an atheist and I want that day off, and _most_ people, regardless of religion, want the day off. Objecting to that is like objecting to the weekend because it falls on the Jewish and Christian sabbaths. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/43 "2012-12-24T18:41:01Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Seriously? I think those signs, and the sentiment they espouse, are stupid as shit, but how is an exhortation by and (presumably) to Christians saying “Fuck the Constitution”? It’s not like the government put up those signs, nor are they directed at the government. > > “Under God” and “In God we trust,” now _those_ are government endorsement of religion. Giving people December 25 off? There’s a perfectly secular reason–I’m an atheist and I want that day off, and _most_ people, regardless of religion, want the day off. Objecting to that is like objecting to the weekend because it falls on the Jewish and Christian sabbaths. As long as you insist that the day off is named after Christ, I think you have an impossible task in defending it as adhering to the First Amendment. The government need not put up the signs to “Keep Christ in Christmas,” nor would it make any sense if the government were behind the signs. But as long as private citizens advocate in public that we remember the non-secular nature of the day off, the hypocrisy of the court in insisting that the day off has nothing at all to do with religion is reinforced. The court says one thing, but private citizens are advertising, “no, no, no, the court has that completely wrong–it IS a religious holiday! It is, it is, it is!!” Got another 100 miles to drive today, so I’ll catch up on the rest of this circle-jerk in a few hours. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/44 "2012-12-24T19:01:36Z")
Is it an equally impossible task claiming that giving us Saturday and Sunday off are not an endorsement of Paganism? Would it become one if pagans started putting up billboards saying “Keep Saturn in Saturday”? If they renamed Christmas “Yule” it would be a perfect parallel: a day off with a pagan name that we recognize for partly Christian reasons but that virtually everyone has embraced for secular reasons. I can’t believe this is really just about the name. What if they deleted the parenthetical “(known as Christmas Day)” from the law? Or is it the fact that there is a Christian celebration on that day and some Christians want to remind the rest of us how important it is? If that’s the case, it’s still parallel to Saturday and Sunday: I’ve seen billboards and heard sermons reminding people that Sunday isn’t just a day off from work, but is “the Lord’s Day,” and is set aside specifically for worship. (I’m sure there are similar concerns about Saturday among 7th Day Adventists, and maybe even evangelical Christians who see the Sabbath and the Lord’s Day as separate holidays to be honored each week.) Should the government be required to move the weekend to Monday and Tuesday? (Unless there is some religion that _wants_ Monday and Tuesday off! The government can’t be seen acquiescing to them. Better have government offices open every day!) By the way, Easter, being on a Sunday, is already a day off anyway, so it’s not relevant, but it’s also named after a pagan goddess. Surely defending it as a Christian holiday would be an impossible task, too. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/45 "2012-12-24T19:03:05Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > (and pay special attention to those first pesky six letters of the holiday’s name, kids) Does your condescending tone imply that we “kids” are unaware? I’m a Hindu atheist and I celebrate Christmas. It’s religious origins mean nothing to means I do.t think I’m alone in that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/46 "2012-12-24T19:17:51Z")
It’s law, not math. Contradictions don’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/47 "2012-12-24T19:30:28Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Where are the names of the weekdays mandated by federal law? > > Please finish rolling your eyes fully before finding me a cite for this. I’ll wait. The federal government uses the pagan names of the days of the week in thousands of documents. For exams, when it sets deadlines it often says that Sundays and Saturdays don’t count. That pretty much exactly the same as this Christmas situation. The government is doing nothing but stating that the government will be closed on a day on which most employees and the general public will want to have off anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/48 "2012-12-24T19:45:52Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > The First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States: > > The courts have ruled that an actual law is not actually required; anything that gives the appearance of official approval of a religion is also forbidden. Prayer isn’t permitted in schools that receive government fund because that could be taken for government endorsement of Christianity. SCOTUS has ruled that the “Establishment Clause” also applies to the individual state governments; Roy Moore was fired from his office as Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court because he refused to remove the Ten Commandments displayed in his courtroom, again because this gave the impression of government support for a particular religion. There are other such cases, all of which affirm that appearing to support a religion is just as unconstitutional as actually passing a law that supports one. > > (Emphasis mine.) > > Now [here](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/6103) we have an actual law - US Code Title 5, Part III, Subpart E, Chapter 61, Subchapter I, § 6103 - which decrees that a major religious holiday (celebrating the supposed birth of an important Christian religious figure) is to be observed as a federal law. > > (Again, emphasis mine.) > > As noted above, SCOTUS has ruled that the Establishment Clause applies also to the states. But [here](http://law.justia.com/codes/connecticut/2011/title1/chap002/Sec1-4.html) we have a state law - 2011 Connecticut Code Title 1, Chapter 2, Section 1-4 - stating that the same religious holiday is also to be observed as a legal holiday in the state of Connecticut. > > Can somebody tell me how these two laws, and other state laws listing legal holidays, fail to be in violation of the First Amendment? It’s very simple–the First Amendment does not mean what liberals think it means. “Establishment of religion” means making a particular denomination the official church of the country. For example, the Lutheran Church is the official church of Germany, and possibly some of the Scandinavian countries. The Church of England is the official denomination of England. One of the reasons we know this is because several things that modern-day liberals claim are violations of the First Amendment were started almost as soon as the new government under the Constitution was assembled. > [@](#): > > The First Congress voted to appoint and pay a chaplain for each House in the very same week they voted to approve the First Amendment. > **[Why Is There a House Chaplain, Anyway?](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2000/03/why-is-there-a-house-chaplain-anyway.html)** > > House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., ended months of controversy Thursday when he appointed the Rev. Daniel Coughlin of Chicago, a Catholic priest, to... Today, this would cause a scandal of massive proportions– > [@](#): > > It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. > **[Religion and the Federal Government, Part 2 - Religion and the Founding of...](https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html)** > > On Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson and of James Madison the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed... ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/49 "2012-12-24T19:49:35Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > It’s very simple–the First Amendment does not mean what liberals think it means. “Establishment of religion” means making a particular denomination the official church of the country. Not any more. It means what the SCOTUS says it means, which is defined by [the Lemon test.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_test#Lemon_test) ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/50 "2012-12-24T20:08:20Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Can somebody tell me how these two laws, and other state laws listing legal holidays, fail to be in violation of the First Amendment? Sure looks like it to me. Perhaps we should change it from 12/25 to 12/21 and go back to celebrating the solstice. Makes more sense to do it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/51 "2012-12-24T20:40:35Z")
I say let 'em have Christmas, if they agree to shut up about absolutely everything else. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/52 "2012-12-24T20:50:36Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Prayer isn’t permitted in schools that receive government fund because that could be taken for government endorsement of Christianity. By the way, no matter how often this gets repeated, it still isn’t true. Anyone can pray in schools; the first amendment insists on it, in fact. What’s not permitted is the government _making_ you pray: teacher/school led prayers, formalized prayers before football games, and thinly disguised “moments of silence” sort of things. The _school_ (acting as an arm of the government) can’t pray – no one’s stopping the students from doing so of their own volition. Even teachers can pray in schools, although they’ve got to be more careful about what they’re conveying when they do it, so most will do it privately. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/53 "2012-12-24T21:44:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I say let 'em have Christmas, if they agree to shut up about absolutely everything else. As if. Look, I propose a simple test: have the Federal government declare any day other than December 25th an official holiday. Make the 27th “Shopping Day” or make the 24th “pre-New Year’s Day” or make the 26th “Freedom from Religion Day” just to show how heartily we endorse the concept of the separation of church and state. Those of you arguing that it’s just another day off work should have zero problem with my proposal, right? Devout Christians, to whom the 25th has sacred significance , can simply arrange to switch days off with non-Christian co-workers, or take a personal day to make it into 2 straight days off, and the rest of us have gotten screwed out of exactly nothing. Never happen, of course, but explain to me why this wouldn’t satisfy everyone. I will especially enjoy the spectacle of Christians attempting to justify the infeasibility of my plan on purely secular grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/54 "2012-12-24T21:52:57Z")
I would have no problem with your proposal. Unless you mean _instead_ of Christmas. Like I said, I’m an atheist, and I want to spend the day with my atheist family members exchanging non-religious gifts like we have my whole life. If the majority of non-Christians feel the same way (and I think they do) then it’s not favoring Christians to have December 25 off, it’s favoring the majority without regard to religion. Once again, it’s almost exactly parallel with the weekend. I don’t get the weekend off in my current job (or Christmas either, for that matter) but I want to, and it would be an expensive pain in the ass to move the normal weekend to two other days just to avoid letting Christians take advantage of Sunday and Jews and 7th Day Adventists of Saturday. Even though those groups are the reason we have Saturday and Sunday off. Unless you can draw a principled distinction between weekends off and Christmas off, they are equally acceptable or unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/55 "2012-12-24T21:53:48Z")
I am still not seeing the issue the way **pseudotriton ruber ruber** sees it. I stand by my point that there needs to be some holidays and it really doesn’t matter what the justification is behind them as long as no one is forced to do anything on that particular day. We don’t get a lot of holidays in the U.S. If you want to include Yom Kippur, that sounds great by me but I really want my favorite holiday, Halloween, to be a national holiday and it is pagan. Let’s say that atheist groups won some major legal battles and had the official government holiday moved to December 26th just to spite the Christians and secular people that like celebrating Christmas without taking a vacation day. There is nothing that has to tie December 25th to the celebration of Christ’s birth. We do not know exactly when Jesus was born but we do know it almost certainly wasn’t December 25th. It was most likely in the spring based on the biblical accounts of shepherds keeping watch over their flocks. Christmas was assigned December 25th to replace existing pagan holidays as it gained strength in the Roman empire but it doesn’t have to stay there. Theologically, the celebration of Christ’s birth is a minor Christian holiday and was barely celebrated at all in early America. What we know of as Christmas today was invented very late in American culture and isn’t even celebrated by all Christians today. That is a big reason why it became hybrid cultural and religious holiday. What if we played political/religious chess and moved Christmas around to fit whatever winter holiday the government grants? Is the government supposed to actively avoid any holidays that some groups associate with religion? If that is the case, we could play a game of holiday chicken where each side actively avoids cooperating with the other. Don’t laugh, Easter is the biggest theological Christian holiday and it jumps around all over the place based on an arcane formula. It is only the fact that it falls on a Sunday that saves us from the moving target problem problem. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/56 "2012-12-24T22:00:10Z")
Of course I mean instead of Christmas. It’s expensive to give people the day off, and the reason we had to “pay” for MLK day by merging Lincoln and Washington into President’s Day. I don’t give much of any kind of rodent’s ass about Xmas in that I can mostly avoid it at this point, but I’m simply pointing out that it’s a flat contradiction of the first amendment and Christians will twist themselves into pretzels justifying an official Federal holiday that is so openly devoted to worship of a particular religion’s God in a nation that purports to endorse no particular religion. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/57 "2012-12-24T22:17:06Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Of course I mean instead of Christmas. It’s expensive to give people the day off, and the reason we had to “pay” for MLK day by merging Lincoln and Washington into President’s Day. > > I don’t give much of any kind of rodent’s ass about Xmas in that I can mostly avoid it at this point, but I’m simply pointing out that it’s a flat contradiction of the first amendment and Christians will twist themselves into pretzels justifying an official Federal holiday that is so openly devoted to worship of a particular religion’s God in a nation that purports to endorse no particular religion. And Christians are allowed to twist themselves into pretzels that way. As long as the majority of other people feel the same way, it’s not religious preference, regardless of the origin of the holiday. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/58 "2012-12-24T22:18:57Z")
Let’s apply the Lemon\* test: 1. The government’s action must have a secular legislative purpose; 2. The government’s action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion; 3. The government’s action must not result in an “excessive government entanglement” with religion. Like most such test, it has 3 parts. Think of it as the Holy Trinity. Oops, maybe not. 1. The secular purpose is that most Americans want the day off because it’s a religious holiday. _BZZZZT!!_ 2. The secular purpose is that most Americans would take the day off, and there isn’t enough departmental infrastructure to justify having the other folks work. _OK, I can buy that._ 3. The primary effect of this is give everyone a day off to celebrate a religious holiday. _BZZZZZT!!_ 4. “Excessive” is in the mind of the beholder, but I think this is aimed at keeping the government out of religion and religion out of the government. I’m an atheist, and I don’t see this as “excessive”. I can get my head around answers to #1 and #3, but I can’t see how #2 works. \*leaving aside for the moment whether this test is a correct interpretation of the 1st amendment. It is, for the time being, the law of the land. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/59 "2012-12-24T22:19:09Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Of course I mean instead of Christmas. It’s expensive to give people the day off, and the reason we had to “pay” for MLK day by merging Lincoln and Washington into President’s Day. > > I don’t give much of any kind of rodent’s ass about Xmas in that I can mostly avoid it at this point, but I’m simply pointing out that it’s a flat contradiction of the first amendment and Christians will twist themselves into pretzels justifying an official Federal holiday that is so openly devoted to worship of a particular religion’s God in a nation that purports to endorse no particular religion. Don’t bring economics into this because that is the biggest losing argument of all. Christmas pays for itself so many times over that much of the economy depends on it. It doesn’t cost anything to give salaried people a particular day off (they are paid for a year’s work, not a day and salaried people are expected to manage their work around any holidays) and it saves money in some ways. The only people that actually cost more for a major national holiday are essential workers that get mandatory overtime for it. That only applies to a small percentage of people, most of whom work for an employer who sees the economic benefit of staying open despite the holiday such as gas stations and Chinese restaurants and they generate a profit from it too. Make no mistake about it, if you try to downplay Christmas, you are affecting the overall economy negatively and that effects everyone regardless of what they think about the reasons for it. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/60 "2012-12-24T22:20:39Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > And Christians are allowed to twist themselves into pretzels that way. As long as the majority of other people feel the same way, it’s not religious preference, regardless of the origin of the holiday. So you’re saying that a majority opinion invalidates the clear language of the Constitution? As long as 51%+ of Americans are willing to make the birth of the Christian God into a Federal holiday, the first amendment doesn’t apply? I agree with this, as a statement of fact, but as a reading of the way the Constitution is intended to work, it makes me vomit. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973/61 "2012-12-24T22:23:05Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Don’t bring economics into this that biggest losing argument of all. Christmas pays for itself so many times over that much of the economy depends on it. It doesn’t cost anything to give salaried people a day off and it saves money in some ways. The only people that actually cost more for a major national holiday are essential workers get overtime for it. That only applies to a small percentage of people, most of whom work for an employer who sees the economic benefit of staying open despite the holiday such as gas stations and Chinese restaurants. Make no mistake about it, if you try to downplay Christmas, you are affecting the overall economy negatively and that effects everyone regardless of what they think about the reasons for it. OK, you tell me why, if not for economic reasons, we had to merge Lincoln and Washington together when MLK Day was introduced? (Don’t try “coincidence” for another hour, please–I just ate, and I might puke from laughing. Thx.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xmas-and-the-first-amendment/644973.md?page=4)