# xtisme, come on down, you muppet! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300 "2010-06-07T17:06:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/321 "2010-06-09T11:29:22Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > You mean like fighter pilots, radar operators, military installation guards, and the like? Are you telling me that there is no-one of sufficient intelligence and judgement who takes this subject at all seriously? You have a weird appeal to authority. I could accept fighter pilots as better than average sources of information on the subject of UFOs since they would be trained in identification of aircraft, would have practical experience figuring out what certain odd sky conditions were, etc. I could accept that radar operators were actually viewing an unknown event that triggered their radars. But military guards? Why do they have some sort of special authority? It’s weird that you talk about how you know a military guy is lying because his lips are moving, yet they are the authorities to trust when they support what you want to believe. I’m not even saying any particular person is lying. Sometimes weird atmospheric conditions or unidentified aircraft or other factors end up creating a situation that the observers aren’t equipped to explain. This is a giant leap from “must be space aliens!” Look, if there’s a specific incident you’d like to debate or a specific piece of evidence to bring forward, go ahead, we can do that. Otherwise your claims are too vague to analyze. Oh, hey - out of curiosity, do you think that crop circles are evidence of alien visitation? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/322 "2010-06-09T11:33:33Z")
As I mentioned upthread, my comment about politicians and military lying was a joke. It’s usually used about politicians alone, but I added my own touch. Sorry you missed it. As for crop circles, even graffiti artists leave some sort of clue to their identity. Found anything similar on the more elaborate crop circles? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/323 "2010-06-09T11:37:31Z")
So do you think crop circles by aliens preceeded the admitted hoaxers, and the hoaxers were just copying? Or did the hoaxers start doing it first, and then the aliens, in order to outdo them, came along and did even more elaborate crop circles? Before those behind crop circles admitted their hoax and demonstrated how they were done, were you convinced that they were all alien work? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/324 "2010-06-09T12:08:18Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > As I mentioned upthread, my comment about politicians and military lying was a joke. It’s usually used about politicians alone, but I added my own touch. Sorry you missed it. > > As for crop circles, even graffiti artists leave some sort of clue to their identity. Found anything similar on the more elaborate crop circles? You believe crop circles are real because the authors don’t sign their work? Y’know that "idiot, troll or both " thing that is currently going on? Could you please stop submitting evidence, or we’ll _never_ decide one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/325 "2010-06-09T12:27:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You believe crop circles are real because the authors don’t sign their work? I mention that as an anomaly where works of art are submitted for viewing. Assume all you want from that. Oh, and [Doug and Dave](http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/dougdave.html) were piss artists, nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/326 "2010-06-09T12:29:46Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Oh, hey - out of curiosity, do you think that crop circles are evidence of alien visitation? Oooh, now I want to hear his thoughts on cattle mutes. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/327 "2010-06-09T12:42:36Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Better than your sad attempts at making me look foolish. What sad attempts? I’m only at page 2 of the thread and they look like successful attempts. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/328 "2010-06-09T12:53:39Z")
And your opinion either way is valuable, how exactly? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/329 "2010-06-09T12:56:44Z")
Quit dodging. Surely you can simply state your beliefs here, right? Answer my question in post #323. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/330 "2010-06-09T13:07:16Z")
I don’t believe they were all done by pranksters traipsing around with balls of string, and planks strapped to their feet, in the middle of the night. Some might be the work of an alien intelligence, or there might be secret technology of our own involved. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/331 "2010-06-09T13:09:01Z")
So which came first? Were the hoaxers copying aliens, or were the aliens copying the hoaxers? And before they were revealed to be a hoax, were you convinced they were the work of aliens? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/332 "2010-06-09T13:09:23Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > If you insist that I must read this book before I dismiss it, and another crank insists that I read their recommended book, and then another crank insists I read yet a third book - I would have to read every book ever written on the subject, consuming a significant portion of my life, to examine the evidence to your satisfaction. I can’t afford to read all those books either. My suggested reading list is already clogged with a zillion books that prove that Ron/Rand Paul is/are a genius(es). Speaking of which, [there’s a move amongst RP supporters](http://www.ronpaulwarroom.com/?p=3262) to form “UFO Brigades” to investigate the continued conspiracy to control us via UFOs. I nominate **ivan astikov** as Brigadier General of the Doper UFO Brigade. He’ll bring these brigands to heel! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/333 "2010-06-09T13:11:26Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > So which came first? Were the hoaxers copying aliens, or were the aliens copying the hoaxers? > > And before they were revealed to be a hoax, were you convinced they were the work of aliens? Why or why not? Have you seen the woodcut of a 16th/17th century crop circle? Was that Doug and Dave in their sekrit time machine? Or do you think that is where these drunken old fools got their idea from? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/334 "2010-06-09T13:13:42Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Have you seen the woodcut of a 16th/17th century crop circle? Was that Doug and Dave in their sekrit time machine? Why not just answer my questions instead of trying to dodge them? Surely if you have a sincere view on the issue you can express instead of this evasive bullshit, right? If you have to weasel and evade when someone simply asks you what your views are, you’re full of shit - either knowingly full of shit and trolling, or unknowingly full of shit and stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/335 "2010-06-09T13:19:50Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > It doesn’t exactly state what you are saying, does it? See, **revise** , not **reverse**. Bit of a difference. And you were accusing others of using “weasel words”? So if it’s proven beyond doubt that the author of the book was a fraud, a liar, and in it only to make money, you wouldn’t “reverse” your opinion of the book, merely “revise” it? Presumably you’d revise it from being absolutely 100% proven true and right, to, what, pretty much almost certainly at least 95% right? That’s some powerful intellectual honesty there. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/336 "2010-06-09T13:21:20Z")
I’m answering your questions, you just don’t like my replies. ---
**Author:** ![cards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@cards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cards)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/337 "2010-06-09T13:23:50Z")
Goodness, seven pages of this lunacy with no support from another poster? Does that tell you anything, ivan? No? You sir are in a class by yourself. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/338 "2010-06-09T13:25:10Z")
They’re weasely non-answers. 17th century art depicting something like a crop circle? This is your concrete answer to my totally straightforward question? No, you’re answering a question with a question to evade. Give me your sequence of events with crop circles and how the hoaxes played into it. And before the hoaxers came public, did you believe that their crop circles were the works of aliens? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/339 "2010-06-09T13:26:23Z")
> [@cards](#): > > Goodness, seven pages of this lunacy with no support from another poster? Does that tell you anything, ivan? No? You sir are in a class by yourself. Well, there is the planet of the invisible neutrals that he’s scoring points with. Ivan is convinced he’s making a fool out of all of us to anyone reading the thread though. Would anyone like to come out of the shadows and side with him and confirm that this is the case? Is Ivan giving us the intellectual beat down on a level we just can’t quite comprehend? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/340 "2010-06-09T13:28:29Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > And you were accusing others of using “weasel words”? > > So if it’s proven beyond doubt that the author of the book was a fraud, a liar, and in it only to make money, you wouldn’t “reverse” your opinion of the book, merely “revise” it? Presumably you’d revise it from being absolutely 100% proven true and right, to, what, pretty much almost certainly at least 95% right? > > That’s some powerful intellectual honesty there. Let me try and explain this the best I can, and put an end to your nonsense. IF - and it still an IF at this time - MR Dolan had admitted somewhere that all he had done was copied bits from other books and cobbled them together merely to make some money, I would be far less appreciative of his work than if he had done it with noble intent, and the money was just a bonus. It’s as simple as that. Now what? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300.md?page=18)