# xtisme, come on down, you muppet! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300 "2010-06-07T17:06:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/401 "2010-06-09T19:36:30Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Sure, why wouldn’t they? The idea that the public at large couldn’t handle it and mass hysteria would ensue is just a silly meme from 50’s sci-fi movies. You think? Because the average person is fairly rational? > [@PlainJain](#): > > A couple of questions for you: > > 1. What makes you think the military would have the ability to hide a far advanced technology that seems to jetting around willy-nilly in the sky? > 2. What would government gain by hiding the fact that aliens are visiting our planet? > > I’m interested in your opinion. 1. They haven’t completely. They are involved in damage limitation and use many methods to achieve it. 2. The appearance of their respective militaries still having sufficient control over their airspace. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/402 "2010-06-09T19:38:45Z")
[QUOTE=ivan astikov] If the militaries of the UK or USA had definitive proof that ufo’s were intelligently piloted vehicles, would you expect them to announce it to the world’s media? [/QUOTE] Even assuming the answer to your question is no, why would you suppose that only they would know about it? Or that they would be able to control everyone else to such a degree that belief in UFO’s is relegated to crackpots and the like? It would take the ability to subvert literally millions of people and whole nation states in order to keep such a secret. Unless you are proposing the these space aliens are working directly with the US/UK, the evidence would be out there. Real evidence, not ambiguous photos or anecdotal accounts. It’s simply unreasonable to propose that the US government (a government that, leaving aside the beliefs of CTers, leaks like a sieve, with government officials literally crawling over each other to leak ‘unofficial’ information to the news media for the price of a couple of drinks and a nice dinner) could maintain such a lock down on information, not for days, weeks or months, or even years, but literally for DECADES. Not. Possible. I know you believe that the 9/11 stuff was a cover up, and thus if they could cover THAT up, this would be child’s play, but the reality is that our government sucks at keeping anything large a secret for any length of time. We couldn’t even keep something that was top secret like the stealth fighter under wraps until the military was ready to take the lid off (anyone remember when Tom Clancy published Red Storm Rising and his almost perfect description of the stealth fighter, even down to it’s actual role in combat?), let alone something that would encompass orders of magnitude more people being in the know. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/403 "2010-06-09T19:54:22Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > You think? Because the average person is fairly rational? If the average person was going to panic under the threat of alien invasion causing annihilation, why were they not panicking constantly under the much more known and imminent threat of nuclear annihilation in the 60s-80s? > [@](#): > > 1. The appearance of their respective militaries still having sufficient control over their airspace. As mentioned above, “There are aliens in our skies–we need a LOT more money to fight them off!” is more of what we’d consider historically typical military behavior. > [@xtisme](#): > > the reality is that our government sucks at keeping anything large a secret for any length of time. We couldn’t even keep something that was top secret like the stealth fighter under wraps until the military was ready to take the lid off (anyone remember when Tom Clancy published Red Storm Rising and his almost perfect description of the stealth fighter, even down to it’s actual role in combat?), let alone something that would encompass orders of magnitude more people being in the know. This. Clancy had the mission role of the stealth fighter/bomber pretty much perfect two years before the actual F-117 was revealed to the world at large–AND to make it more ironic, his description of the appearance/designation of the fighter was based on a hypothetical fighter produced and built by a plastic aircraft model company. Hell, I have freaked the fuck out of my friends who work for various defense contractors and/or the DoD by coming out with “oh, you’re working on X.” in response to them talking about the non-classified portions of their jobs in a vague way. If me, some random guy from central PA, knows about (say) the X-51 cruise missile (including the designation!) a year before the Air Force/NASA publicly admit they’re working on such a thing, I highly doubt any UFO information could be kept so secret as to defy any attempts at systematic description or correlated reports with the possibility of physical evidence. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/404 "2010-06-09T19:57:48Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > You think? Because the average person is fairly rational? Yes I do. There are some irrational people out there sure ( 😉 ), but they already believe in things like aliens and crop circles and the like and they aren’t running around in hysteria. Mostly they just write books about it. > [@](#): > > 1. The appearance of their respective militaries still having sufficient control over their airspace. Suppose I want to bulldoze a section of the rain forest. When I get there I discover a primitive tribe. I meet with the chief and tell him my plans so he can move his tribe to safety. Fearing his people might go crazy over this news he decides to hide this information from them instead. So when my giant yellow bulldozer rolls into the village how can the chief keep it from his subjects. Oh, Harold, see what I’m getting at? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/405 "2010-06-09T19:57:55Z")
@ **xtisme** Your post reminds me of that saying “Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence!” I’m just not that trusting though. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/406 "2010-06-09T20:19:00Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > @ **xtisme** > > Your post reminds me of that saying “Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence!” I’m just not that trusting though. Neither are we, so how about some cites from your damn book already? ---
**Author:** ![Cyningablod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/407 "2010-06-09T20:23:11Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Neither are we, so how about some cites from your damn book already? This is page 9 already. I don’t think any quotes will be forthcoming. For fuck’s sake, I don’t think even **ivan** has read the damn thing!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/408 "2010-06-09T20:23:12Z")
It’s not a matter of trust, ivan, it’s a matter of common sense. There simply is no evidence of UFO’s aside from the already mentioned ambiguous photos and anecdotal accounts, most of which have perfectly logical and reasonable explanations for them that don’t include space aliens or wild government conspiracies or cover-ups on monumental scales. Again, it’s like the 9/11 CT’s…in order to believe that this happened you must first believe that the government, known for failure to cover up anything for any length of time, would be able not only to pull off something that complex (deception wise), but also that every one of the 10’s of thousands of folks involved are either so committed that none of them were willing to spill the beans OR that the government some how ‘kept them quiet’…which would entail even more people being involved, at some level. It’s just not reasonable to posit something like that, not when there is a much simpler (as well as correct based on all the real evidence) explanation. On the UFO side of things, when you really start digging into any of the supposed mysterious events then the thing starts to unravel. Roswell is a perfect example of this (in fact, it’s the classic example). It’s become almost ingrained in the American psyche that there was a space craft crash at Roswell in the 40’s and the government is covering up the whole thing. Going to Roswell, the town is chalked full of alien themed buildings (the McDonald’s there has a big flying saucer sticking out of it, you can get Alien Ale at the local restaurants, there is even an Alien Museum in town!). But when you start to dig in the story is almost ludicrous…it’s hard to imagine why anyone would take it seriously. When I used to be involved with Skeptical Inquirer (as a reader and part of their news letter) it used to crack me up reading some of the assertions and then looking at the explanations…which were much more mundane once you started to really look at the events. I don’t know why you chose to go this route to discuss this subject, whether you were really just trolling or you still don’t get how this board works, but I seriously recommend that if you REALLY want to discuss this stuff you start a thread in GD, lay out what you think are your best arguments in support of UFO’s and such, and then engage in the discussion…if possible, with an open mind. I promise that you’ll get a lively discussion, and if you craft your OP right it won’t be the same kind of dismissal and insults as you got in this one (for one thing, they aren’t allowed in GD, and the Mods will rightfully spank anyone who engages in such there…_sorry Tom_ ;)). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/409 "2010-06-09T20:33:54Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > @ **xtisme** > > Your post reminds me of that saying “Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence!” I’m just not that trusting though. You are that damned trusting. You trust every paranoid crackpot you meet. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/410 "2010-06-09T21:27:33Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’ll tell you what, if you can get 50 supporters, I’ll step away from the computer and give you a chance to regroup. How kind of you, to be willing to step back and allow your bruised and bloody opponents a breather, so that they can wade back into the inevitably doomed fray. What next, are you going to threaten to bite our kneecaps off? ---
**Author:** ![EVIL\_COW\_PIE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@EVIL\_COW\_PIE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EVIL_COW_PIE)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/411 "2010-06-09T21:57:36Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Suppose I want to bulldoze a section of the rain forest. When I get there I discover a primitive tribe. I meet with the chief and tell him my plans so he can move his tribe to safety. Fearing his people might go crazy over this news he decides to hide this information from them instead. So when my giant yellow bulldozer rolls into the village how can the chief keep it from his subjects. I would a love response from **ivan** on this right here. How could our puny military possible control information from a species that apparently have the ability to control time, way advanced space travel, gravity and G-forces. As jarring as the above example is, real aliens (if they ever get here) would be even more dramatic. > [@](#): > > Oh, Harold, see what I’m getting at? YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/412 "2010-06-10T01:39:38Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Bollocks. I’m not playing the game to your rules. I make my own up, as and when suitable. > > This is my thread, until some mod gets over-zealous. Here I come to save the day! Sorry I’m late. I’ve had a few reports on this thread. I’ll admit I hadn’t been watching it carefully. Here is what I see: 1. ivan, you seem to be under the impression that you are somehow in charge of this thread. You’re not. I am. 2. You seem to have started this thread in The Pit with the hopes that you could have a Great Debate without respecting basic rules of debate. Unsurprisingly, people called you on it, and a trainwreck ensued. To posters expecting an actual debate, a reminder: That’s not how it works in The Pit. 3. This behavior, along with posts like those quoted below appear to be trolling. You may disagree. I say _res ipsa loquitur_. Whatever the case, you’ve been called on it to the extent that any further trolling efforts will be ineffective. 4. I’d move this to Great Debates, but it seems to have mostly turned into a backfired pitting. Besides, you don’t seem willing to participate in a _debate_, at least under the customary terms of debating. 5. Therefore I am leaving this thread open in The Pit, so the Teeming Millions can continue to Pit you. No warning issued. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Bye. I don’t remember inviting you anyway. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I don’t mind. I only stated the thread to be made a fool of by **xtisme**. Should be fun to watch, even if you don’t take part. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > @ **xtisme** > > Well, let’s start off with a simple question. > > Why should I accept anything you have to say on the subject of ufo’s, and what makes you more of an authority than Mr Dolan, for example? > > Is there anything you know about this author that I need to be aware of, in regards to his integrity? > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Still no response to my post #26 from **xtisme**. > > I’m sure it would be helpful to him if I just took his word as gospel on this matter, but if he intends to make me look foolish, his efforts so far are very disappointing. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Okay. This book has been out since 2000. Anybody want to point me towards a serious rebuttal of it, as opposed to the 10 a penny thoughts of people on the intrawebs? Surely someone, somewhere, has taken this author to task for his erroneous opinions? > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, putting it in the Pit means I can respond to you with the same contempt you are giving me, or my opinions. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > There’s a lot of more favourable reviews on the Amazon page dealing with this book. Why would you attach more weight to this opinion, than one of the ones in its favour? > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’m not interested in what you consider to be a post with substance, so toddle along to another thread. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, I’m supposed to give more credence to a bunch of highly opinionated members of a messageboard, who offer no credentials other than an ability to be completely snarky twats? > > Jog on, you fuckwits. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > What? So you expect me to laboriously type out a case from the book, so you lot can run your expert eyes over it and then proceed to make your rationalisations based on your current beliefs? Nah, I don’t really fancy that. As I’ve said, this publication seems to be the most serious approach to this subject I have ever encountered, and it needs to be read in full before it should be discussed by anyone. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Is this another drive-by retard post, or are you going to substantiate your position? > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Hey, I’m here and functioning well enough to keep you lot coming back for more, so I wonder what that says about your cuntributions in this thread? > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, it would be more accurate to say that I opened the thread so **xtisme** could come and impress me with his knowledge on ufo’s. And so I could call him names if he was his usual annoying self. > > I misread your post slightly, but your assumption is still wrong. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > As for **Scumpup’s** cuntribution; anyone want to tell me what medication he is on? > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Let the record show that **Czarcasm** failed to answer a simple non-leading question, instead prefering to do some irate muttering and threaten to throw his rattle out of the crib. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I call “bullshit” unless you are going to provide a link. > > He certainly wasn’t admitting any such thing [at this time in 2005.](http://www.ufoevidence.org/news/article229.htm) > > Was it after this date, Jim? > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Asking him for a link to something he claims is available via google, isn’t quite the same as you lot asking me to summarise a 500 page book. Especially when I know you lot are all more interested in trying - feebly- to take the piss, than in discussing the topic with any sort of sincerity. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Well, first you’d have to make a case for either. If you think this thread is sufficient, I beg to differ. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I wonder if a kind mod could change this thread title to “ivan and his dancing monkeys thread”? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/413 "2010-06-10T02:32:06Z")
But besides those…? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/414 "2010-06-10T09:15:02Z")
Would you prefer me to respond to your post here, **Gfactor** , or in a PM? You see, you’ve made a couple of basic comprehension errors, and I would like to take you to task for them, so where would be best? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/415 "2010-06-10T09:40:10Z")
> [@EVIL\_COW\_PIE](#): > > I would a love response from **ivan** on this right here. How could our puny military possible control information from a species that apparently have the ability to control time, way advanced space travel, gravity and G-forces. They can’t control the flow of information entirely, which is why they have released a floodgate with the opening of the internet, in the hope that the pertinent stuff will be swallowed by the sheer volume of other stuff. And if it is spotted, they merely go to work with their so far tried and trusted discredit and ridicule routine. Imho. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/416 "2010-06-10T11:54:35Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Would you prefer me to respond to your post here, **Gfactor** , or in a PM? > > You see, you’ve made a couple of basic comprehension errors, and I would like to take you to task for them, so where would be best? PM me. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/417 "2010-06-10T17:55:58Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > PM me. Make sure to use the subject: Alien Werewolves and Moderators of message boards: Aren’t we a Pair? copyright 2010 Hamletpress. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/418 "2010-06-10T18:34:30Z")
Ivan, you seem to be struggling a bit maintaining your composure in this “I’m right and everybody else is wrong” debacle, so I want to help you out a little bit. When you respond to a post with a quip, it’s like you’re choosing lines from the _Stinging Comebacks for Dummies_ handbook. Your rebuttals have no meat to them when you do that, because you haven’t got the audience on your side. You may THINK that quips like “Boring, read a book and try again” put the adversary in their place, but they DON’T. You’re looking in the “Arguing Against Idiots” section, which works better for the Justin Bieber forums than they do here. SDMB members rely more on facts, cites, and reasonable logic-based arguments than they do “I’m rubber, you’re glue!” They’ve actually READ books, and they expect you to do the same. There’s no real assurance you’ve even read this book. You don’t quote passages, you don’t post links to reviews, you don’t even say if it has a cool cover. You haven’t even attempted to make up a Dolan passage out of thin air to support your claims. For somebody who buys into a lot of conspiracies, you sure don’t display much of an imagination! And PLEASE lay off the “You don’t know me, so don’t judge me” chestnut. 14-yr-old goths have already played that to death and beyond. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/419 "2010-06-10T19:01:14Z")
And I’ll tell you why I’m avoiding getting into any interminable kind of debate on this subject. It’s because people like you and the majority of posters in this thread ( Hey, if you can make wholesale assumptions about MY personality, you can’t criticise me for doing it! ) are not interested in debating the topic of ufo’s; you just want to try and appear smart and attack the person making the claims. Give me a good reason why I should let any of you have that satisfaction. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300/420 "2010-06-10T19:04:06Z")
Aside from the full on irony of saying ‘are not interested in debating the topic of ufo’s’, I have to say…well duh! You opened your thread in the Pit. I realize that this still hasn’t gotten through your thick skull, but you don’t open a thread in the freaking Pit to ‘debate’ anything…you open a thread in the Pit to heap abuse on someone (or, in your case, have it backfire and get the poo thrown at joo). Seriously man…why is this so hard for your to grasp?? -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/xtisme-come-on-down-you-muppet/542300.md?page=22)