# Yaaarghh! It's pronounced SUB-SID-I-ARY, goddammit!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284 "2011-01-20T03:44:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/81 "2011-01-31T15:38:29Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > How about Renwah, the artist? You know, the one the rest of us call Renoir? Is that a British pronunciation? I could understand that, but not when Americans pronounce it that way. Yeah, but some Boston dialects are half-way to Brit. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/82 "2011-02-01T07:10:11Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Yeah, but some Boston dialects are half-way to Brit. Okay, they get a pass, too. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/83 "2011-02-01T13:35:12Z")
A local news broadcaster recently pronounced “peripheral” as “periphrial”. I was doing some work at the time with the news on in the background, so I had to rewind my DVR before I could actually believe my own ears. Periphrial. It was a word that was pretty central to the story, too. (Hah, it wasn’t “periphrial” to the story.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/84 "2011-02-01T13:36:54Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > How about Renwah, the artist? You know, the one the rest of us call Renoir? Is that a British pronunciation? I could understand that, but not when Americans pronounce it that way. It’s French, and that’s pretty close to the French pronunciation. It has nothing to do with Americans or Brits dropping their Rs. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/85 "2011-02-02T00:19:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s French, and that’s pretty close to the French pronunciation. Not close enough for my ear. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/86 "2011-02-02T00:25:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s French, and that’s pretty close to the French pronunciation. No, it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/87 "2011-02-02T00:44:37Z")
Sure it is. And it’s a lot closer than if the “r” was actually pronounced. Americans who are dropping the “r” are trying, within the American English sound system, to pronounce it as the French do. Of course it’s not the same as the way the French pronounce it, since we have an accent when we speak French. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/88 "2011-02-02T02:26:16Z")
The “r” is pronounced in French. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/89 "2011-02-02T03:03:22Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > The “r” is pronounced in French. With a sound that doesn’t exist in English. The back R is often elided when we say French words. Have you never an Anglophone say au revoir as if it were spelled ovois (oh-vwah in English)? Or, even more common, _bonjour_ as if it were spelled bonjous (“bong zhoo” is the best I can do without IPA [bõʒu]). Yes, I’m aware some French people use a rolled or flipped R, but it seems less common, at least in French as presented in America. While overly pronounced in stereotypical French, it is quite light in the less stereotypical variety. It makes sense for it to be completely elided by people who do not know how to make the sound. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/90 "2011-02-02T03:35:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > With a sound that doesn’t exist in English. The back R is often elided when we say French words. Have you never an Anglophone say au revoir as if it were spelled ovois (oh-vwah in English)? Or, even more common, _bonjour_ as if it were spelled bonjous (“bong zhoo” is the best I can do without IPA [bõʒu]). > > Yes, I’m aware some French people use a rolled or flipped R, but it seems less common, at least in French as presented in America. While overly pronounced in stereotypical French, it is quite light in the less stereotypical variety. It makes sense for it to be completely elided by people who do not know how to make the sound. All understood. None of which makes [ɹɛn-wa] “close” to the French pronunciation, at least as compared to [ɹɛn-waɹ]. The use of an allophone is objectively “closer” in pronunciation that the complete elision of the sound. And no, I don’t generally hear [ovwa] or [bõʒu]. It’s generally [oɹvwa] and [bonʤuɹ] (you seriously hear people correctly pronounce the nasal?). This is not a criticism of Anglophone’s abilities at French, by the way; just noting that the general inability of Americans to properly pronounce French doesn’t make dropping the final “r” from “Renoir” close to the French pronunciation. And you can use IPA. It’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/91 "2011-02-02T04:08:19Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > The “r” is pronounced in French. But not like it is in English. When we here French pronounce a word that ends in “r”, it sounds like it’s not there. There isn’t a sound in English that corresponds to the French “r”. The closest thing we can do at the end of a word is to not pronounce it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/92 "2011-02-02T04:43:02Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > That’s going a long way for a joke. I see what you did there. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/93 "2011-02-02T04:54:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But not like it is in English. When we here French pronounce a word that ends in “r”, it sounds like it’s not there. There isn’t a sound in English that corresponds to the French “r”. The closest thing we can do at the end of a word is to not pronounce it at all. I answered this in some detail in my previous post. I disagree with the basic premise (that dropping the “r” is closer than substituting the American “r”), but my core argument is that the general inability for Americans to distinguish French phonemes doesn’t make one mispronunciation somehow more precise than another one. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/94 "2011-02-02T05:19:47Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Somebody assaulted me with “simular” tonight. Yep, I hear simular all the time, and subsiderary, and detereeate. Drives me up a wall. I’ve just about given up any expectation of the average American pronouncing even the simplest words correctly. I mean, there are people who believe the words baht and bought are pronounced, and sound, exactly the same, for goodness sake. What hope have we for parenteral, exigency, or malleability? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/95 "2011-02-02T07:12:50Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > They ran a series of car commercials a while back in which the announcer pronounced it _Jag-you-are_. > I guess they don’t wan’t anybody driving a Jaguar who would be vulgar enough to say _Jag-wahr_ like 98.4% of normal people. Speaking as someone that comes from a wee town just outside Coventry and had a school bus that used to go past the Jaguar headquarters, this leaves me with a weird sense of local pride. Anyway, when at University, UNIVERSITY, I had an Algebra Professor that taught me Galois Theory yet couldn’t pronounce the word “integer” right. Used to do my nut in. ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/96 "2011-02-02T14:14:34Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Yep, I hear simular all the time, and subsiderary, and detereeate. Drives me up a wall. I’ve just about given up any expectation of the average American pronouncing even the simplest words correctly. I mean, there are people who believe the words baht and bought are pronounced, and sound, exactly the same, for goodness sake. What hope have we for parenteral, exigency, or malleability? Spare a thought for people like me. I hear people make complaints like yours, and then go on to “mispronounce” words like every native speaker does (and you probably do). I just have to hold my tongue - there is no way to convince people that they speak the way the do without recording them. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/97 "2011-02-02T15:05:46Z")
> [@Manwich](#): > > Spare a thought for people like me. I hear people make complaints like yours, and then go on to “mispronounce” words like every native speaker does (and you probably do). I just have to hold my tongue - there is no way to convince people that they speak the way the do without recording them. I don’t believe every native English speaker mispronounces English words. As a student of languages, I like to count myself among those who are very aware of how words are pronounced and strive to approximate this awareness in my speech as closely as possible, although I’m sure I take a misstep every now and then when conversing in Spanish, French, or Japanese. However, if I come across a word I am not sure how to pronounce, I don’t use it in conversation until I am. So if I simply can’t pronounce, say, deteriorate, I’d use another word in its place, e.g., degrade, lessen, etc… I wouldn’t continue to say detereeate, especially after being corrected. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/98 "2011-02-02T18:25:21Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > But a lot of people don’t pronounce the r, either. Jag-wah. Of course, a lot of these same people would say it like this: “Look over theyah! It’s a jagwah!” too 😉 I’ve been hearing Jaguar stretched out into four syllables lately; Jag-OO-wuy-urr. Also what seems like a recent trend: place names in the Middle East being pronounced with a long British a rather than the shorter American a. For example: - Ih-rahhk instead of Ih-rak - Pahhk-ih-stahhn (and, in a few cases, Pahhk-ih-schtahhn) instead of Pak-ih-stan - Ahhf-ghahhn-uh-stahhn instead of Af-gan-ih-stan ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/99 "2011-02-02T22:17:56Z")
Nuclear. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284/100 "2011-02-03T00:30:50Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > I’ve been hearing Jaguar stretched out into four syllables lately; Jag-OO-wuy-urr. > > Also what seems like a recent trend: place names in the Middle East being pronounced with a long British a rather than the shorter American a. For example: > > - Ih-rahhk instead of Ih-rak I believe Ih-rahk is the correct pronunciation. We’ve just been subjected to George W. Bush’s incorrect pronunciation for too long. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yaaarghh-its-pronounced-sub-sid-i-ary-goddammit/568284.md?page=6)