# Yahoo! ordered to pay damages for auctioning neo-Nazi objects **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2000, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244 "2000-05-22T23:46:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![FarTreker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@FarTreker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FarTreker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/61 "2000-08-13T22:16:16Z")
What do you expect from a nation which protects and shelters Ira Einhorn, the American hippy guru who while preaching peace, love and higher thoughts, murdered his pretty girlfriend brutally, stuffed her in a trunk full of newspapers in his house and locked it in a closet? He gives us the finger from France, where he finially fled to, because he was tried in absentia, found guilty and sentenced to death. The French courts figure he is not guilty enough to die, so he is living large over there while the Frogs refuse to extradite or imprison him. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/62 "2000-08-13T22:34:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mrblue92 \* > \*\ ***The Ryan:** > > Did you read my _last_ post on this thread? I had already pretty much addressed those particular points the last time through this **two months ago**. > > Go away kid, ya bother me. \*\* You “adressed” these points? So once you express your opinion, no one else is allowed to add anything? And just what makes you think I have any concern whatsoever for your being “bothered”? ---
**Author:** ![mrblue92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/63 "2000-08-14T14:18:45Z")
OK then. I’ll respond exactly as I did before: > [@](#): > > My apologies. I can see how you’d probably misinterpret my post, as I wasn’t completely clear about my position. But those strawmen are just so fun to knock down! > > First, I was pointing out Yahoo might be able to comply, at least partially, to make the French happy. The first two replies are about practical compliance; the third about freedom on the internet. But yes, I went intentionally overboard on that point. More briefly, freedom in the real world is limited for practical concerns, even on the internet. > > The main question of sovereignty (which I think is really the whole point) still stands. Does a country have a right to regulate what products are bought and sold within it’s borders? Absolutely. This is what the French are trying to do; I doubt they think they can prevent sale of Nazi items in the US. But I do agree with you that they are choosing a poor method. Since Yahoo is not the buyer or seller, but merely providing the equivalent of an open marketplace, they are the wrong people to sue. (They are only the right people if you are looking for the deep pockets…) Since the French buyers and sellers are likely the only ones truly violating the law, they should be the targets. Reasonably they might sue Yahoo for a list of names and addresses. Better yet they get rid of their ignorant laws which address only the symptom of hate. Perhaps if you’d read this, you’d have seen that your response seems silly afterward. I’m as guilty as the next guy for sometimes skimming through posts and missing a similar response to the one I gave, but if I’m in GD, it’s a good idea to be a little more careful than in GQ, MPSIMS, or IMHO. Especially with a post as old as this one. Do you really have any idea how bothersome it is to have to re-debate a point 2 and 1/2 months later when I’ve already essentially responded to it? I was speaking in hyperbole and I already apologized for being unclear. If I were the spiteful type, I’d go find a few of your month old GD topics I disagree with and reply to your first post without considering the following ones. But there’s no point in doing that, so I won’t. Now, if you’d like to debate the quote above, feel free… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/64 "2000-08-14T23:42:36Z")
Revtim > [@](#): > > I posted a link in the OP to the original story, and the email story I copied in was complete. You have access to 100 percent of the information I have. Just to be clear: I wasn’t accusing you of leaving anything out, just stating that I realized that it was a possibility. I did read the link, but then this thread came up again, and by that time the link didn’t work and didn’t have an exact memory of it. To mrblue92: simply stating that you did not make your position clear is hardly the same thing as actually making your position clear. I asked what I believe were legitimate questions about your position. Am I supposed to be a mind reader, and figure out which of your points you are actually concerned about, and which were just hyperbole? Or has _everything_ you’ve said in this thread been just for kicks? In the post to which you referred, (which apparently made responding to all previous posts of yours Not Allowed), you specifically stated > [@](#): > > The main question of sovereignty (which I think is really the whole point) still stands. Does a country have a right to regulate what products are bought and sold within it’s borders? Absolutely. This is what the French are trying to do; I responded to this position with the counter argument that > [@](#): > > We’re not discussing what’s **bought and sold** , we’re talking about what’s advertised. And we’re not talking about stuff **within** France’s borders, we’re talking about stuff **outside** France’s borders. Now, do you actually have a response to that, or are going to just keep telling that I “bother” you, and hope that that suffices for an argument? > [@](#): > > Now, if you’d like to debate the quote above, feel free… I already have. Apparently you consider yourself immune to any argument not presented in the proper time frame or something. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/65 "2000-08-15T01:57:26Z")
BTW, if resurrecting dead threads really bothers you that much, complain to Revtim, not me. When I responded to this thread, it was on the first page. ---
**Author:** ![mrblue92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/66 "2000-08-15T13:49:40Z")
> [@](#): > > simply stating that you did not make your position clear is hardly the same thing as actually making your position clear. I asked what I believe were legitimate questions about your position. Am I supposed to be a mind reader, and figure out which of your points you are actually concerned about, and which were just hyperbole? Or has everything you’ve said in this thread been just for kicks? No, I don’t expect you to be a mind reader. I DO expect you read other people’s responses and not take them out of context. Did you really read the conversation? I was trying to avoid having to walk you through it, but it seems unavoidable. Without reposting everything, let’s review the relevant highlights: > [@](#): > > \*\*me: \*\*[If Yahoo wanted to be friendly and comply,] if you entered that your Year 2000 Commerative Nazi Coin was to be shipped to France, Yahoo could simply invalidate the purchase. > > **Gawd:** Am I to now curtail my website to the tastes of others? GaWd no…the internet is freedom, freedom cannot be stamped out by the likes of the French or anyone else out there. If I want a picture of Hitler on my site(not that I do), who are the french to sue me for it? Or any other nation for that matter. > > \*\*me: \*\*It’s not that I’m so much defending the French position as I am rule of law, which in theory is suppose to protect freedom. (Perhaps it doesn’t in this case, but unless you’ve got a better idea… point of a gun?) It seems to me you like a libertarian view of the internet. But how free do you make it? [hyperbolic examples follow] > > \*\*Gawd: \*\*I don’t see these vapor “dangers” that you do. The examples you’ve provided are lame. They either happen on an everyday basis over the phone or in some other form, or they’re just plain ridiculous. > > You think a site selling a warhead wouldn’t be shut down immediately? Give me a break. > > \*\*me: \*\*[That post was] about freedom on the internet. But yes, I went intentionally overboard on that point. More briefly, freedom in the real world is limited for practical concerns, even on the internet. The last sentence should have indicated what I was saying. He was saying, “the internet is freedom”. I’m making the obvious point that freedom is always limited, and so the debatable question becomes what limits you impose. For the majority of your response, you were answering rhetorical questions that were irrelevant to the discussion. > [@](#): > > We’re not discussing what’s bought and sold, we’re talking about what’s advertised. And we’re not talking about stuff within France’s borders, we’re talking about stuff outside France’s borders. Yes, I’ll grant that was an argument, and since you seem intent on debating, let’s do a real world comparison. Let’s say I’m a drug dealer. I set up a stand in the mall that says, “A Great High” and give away phone numbers (to a country where it is not illegal) that you can call and they will ship you drugs. I could be mistaken, but isn’t that still drug trafficking? Maybe not… If I were the cops, though, I’d let him stay there and trace the phone numbers–find the people responsible for the actual commerce. This is really what the French should do if they want to enforce that law. I agree that both the suit in question and the law in question are misguided. But I defend the French right to have said law. > [@](#): > > BTW, if resurrecting dead threads really bothers you that much, complain to Revtim, not me. When I responded to this thread, it was on the first page. That doesn’t bother me at all. What bothered me was that it seemed you hadn’t done your homework before posting. If you had thoroughly read all my posts and still not understood, however, I apologize for brushing you off. If not, well… And since you had posted to this thread when it was new, you should have realized it was resurrected. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/67 "2000-08-15T19:23:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mrblue92 \* > Let’s say I’m a drug dealer. I set up a stand in the mall that says, “A Great High” and give away phone numbers (to a country where it is not illegal) that you can call and they will ship you drugs. I could be mistaken, but isn’t that still drug trafficking? Maybe not… Whether this would be considered drug trafficking, I’m not sure either. But as far as comparing it to the French situation goes, there are two large discrepancies: 1. In your situation, the goods are being advertised specifacally to people for whom it would be illegal. This person specifically went to a place where drugs are illegal, presumably with the expectation of higher prices. In the French situation, however, the advertising in question is directed to Americans, and happens to be received by French. A better comparison would be a liquor store with a sign in the front advertising an alcoholic beverage. Now, a minor could see the advertisement, walk into the store, and ask to buy the beverage. But unless the store actually sells it to him, the store isn’t doing anything wrong. The store is advertising to the general public, and not specifically to minors, and therefore is displaying no intent to sell to minors. 2. In your example, the action is clearly within the country’s jurisdiction. However, Yahoo’s actions occurred in America, not France. An even better analogy would be a liquor store located in a “wet” county advertising a delivery service. This liquor store distributes leaflets throughout the county describing how, for a fee, the liquor store will deliver alcohol to its customers. Suppose that one of the leaflets ends up in a “dry” county. Can the “dry” county prosecute the liquor store for advertising delivery (not delivering, but advertising delivery) in the absence of not only any actual delivery but also the absence of any proof of intent to deliver? (The liquor store did not specifically include the “dry” county in its delivery area, but didn’t specifally exclude it either). ---
**Author:** ![red\_dragon60](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@red\_dragon60](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/red_dragon60)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/68 "2000-08-15T20:28:55Z")
The cheese eating surrender monkeys can just ask Yahoo! not to ship to France. Bingo, problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![mrblue92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/69 "2000-08-15T21:16:50Z")
\*\*The Ryan:\*\*I agree to an extent. However, Yahoo has a specific French site: [http://www.yahoo.fr](http://www.yahoo.fr) and assets in France. So it is more akin to a ‘wet’ county’s newspaper that has a special ‘dry’ county edition allowing advertisements for the ‘wet’ county’s bar. I still think the French are wrong, but I think the subject is not so black and white as most people are making it out to be. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/70 "2000-08-15T22:17:56Z")
Unless you can provide evidence that the French site hosts auctions of Nazi-related items, I believe that it would be akin to having a “wet” county edition that includes advertisements for alcohol, and a “dry” edition that doesn’t. Even if both editions are owned by the same company, the “wet” version isn’t under the “dry” county’s jurisdiction just because there’s a “dry” edition. ---
**Author:** ![mrblue92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/71 "2000-08-16T04:06:36Z")
Alright, here’s the best I could do, considering I really don’t speak any French or German: [http://fr.auctions.yahoo.com/fr/auction/1001142475](http://fr.auctions.yahoo.com/fr/auction/1001142475) From the French Yahoo auction site, it is someone auctioning a 1944 Reich 5 Penny piece. The best I can tell, the auction closes on August 17, 17:23 (Greenwich time?) so it may not be there much longer. Unfortunately, no picture. I also noticed some Luxembourg occupation stamps available, couldn’t make out whose face was supposed to be on them, but no swastikas. Considering the fact that I also don’t know exactly what “offends French sensibility”, I’m probably not the best person to sort through this… ---
**Author:** ![mrblue92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/72 "2000-08-16T04:18:34Z")
I’d also like to note that the auction site in France appears to be completely separate from the American Yahoo. Searching for “hitler” in France currently gives no matches, but on the American Yahoo, I get 309. Could be that Yahoo France has already cracked down on these auctions in an attempt to show good faith. Or the sellers decided to use a less high profile approach. Or you’re correct, and it was the American site that the French have a problem with… ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/73 "2000-08-16T14:40:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by red\_dragon60 \* > \*\*The cheese eating surrender monkeys can just ask Yahoo! not to ship to France. Bingo, problem solved. \*\* It’s not Yahoo! that’s doing the shipping. They are only providing the auction site. The sellers are the ones who ship their items, from their own homes and/or businesses. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244/74 "2000-08-16T14:51:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by red\_dragon60 \* > \*\*The cheese eating surrender monkeys can just ask Yahoo! not to ship to France. Bingo, problem solved. \*\* It’s not Yahoo! that’s doing the shipping. They are only providing the auction site. The sellers are the ones who ship their items, from their own homes and/or businesses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahoo-ordered-to-pay-damages-for-auctioning-neo-nazi-objects/20244.md?page=3)