# Yahweh, The Beginnings **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahweh-the-beginnings/493932 "2009-04-22T02:18:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahweh-the-beginnings/493932/41 "2009-04-28T04:25:59Z")
Bible aside, the archaeology shows that truly montheistic Judaism didn’t exist until fairly late in the game. The Bible is mostly post-exilic and not an accurate record of Israelite religious history. The sticking point, I guess, is the word “Judaism.” Judaism is, by definition, monotheistic, but the Jews didn’t always practice Judaism. Until Josiah (well after the alleged time of David and Solomon), they were polytheists, then henotheistic Yahwism was imposed by force (for political reasons, not really theological), and after the exile, and the Persian influence, it became recognizable as monotheistic Judaism. When you see references in the Hebrew Bible to people being condemned for still putting up shrines to Asherah and the like, remember that you’re reading goverment propaganda. They are not references to fringe-y “heretics,” but to the populist religious practices that were still going on. The true faith of the people was polytheistic. It was the state that was henotheistic (at least for a couple of centuries). ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahweh-the-beginnings/493932/42 "2009-04-28T04:43:25Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I suppose we might be in more agreement than first blush, for I infer the comment ‘to make a case’ that the Israelite nation means that there was some general agreement that serving multiple gods was a sanctioned element of Judaism. I didn’t say sanctioned. I said that the Bible agrees that if we look through archaeology of the area, we shouldn’t be astonished to find things dedicated to deities other than Yahweh. We are agreed that this is so, so the question is what is more believable–that they were polytheistic or that the Biblical account is an honest record of history (or somewhere in-between). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahweh-the-beginnings/493932/43 "2009-04-28T05:04:56Z")
And, uh,\*\* raindog\*\*? Don’t say “snip” in front of the Yahwists. Its a touchy subject… ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahweh-the-beginnings/493932/44 "2009-04-28T09:45:01Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > so the question is what is more believable–that they were polytheistic or that the Biblical account is an honest record of history (or somewhere in-between). 612 BC: the Babylonians and their allies the Medes destroy the Assyrian capital of Nineveh and split the Assyrian empire. Mesopotamia goes to Babylon and Elam to Media, while Egypt recovers control of Palestine and Syria 600 BC: Zarathustra forms a new religion in Persia. A dualistic religion in which Ahura Mazda becomes chief God for the forces of Good and Ahriman for the forces of evil. The other gods degenerate to being a kind of ‘little helpers’. 586 BC: Babylon conquers the regions of Judah and Jerusalem (seperate states at the time !). Deportation of Judean plus jerusalem jews nobility/upper-class to Babylon. 539 BC: Babylon destroyed by Persians. 537 BC: Jews realeased. This is the setting in which the bible is written down. Persian influence is big, in that the dualistic theme is all over the place in the form of Yahweh versus _his_ adversary Shaitan an their ‘little helpers’ the angels and demons. The upper-class, which is rubbing shoulders with their Persian over-lords and liberators, is promoting this new dualistic view, which will evolve into the monotheistic one. As **Diogenes** already said, the normal people still worship in the existing polytheistic tradition, asking ‘What have the Persians ever done for us?’ ‘Well apart from building roads, and waterholes at regular intervals.’ Another important thing to remember is that they were released (back) into the region of Israel. That the re-immigrants needed to establish themselves as the legitimate owners of a land, where others were still/already living. Anything in the bible that refers to the Jews and their state and religion before this period is suspect and should be read with this setting in mind. Assuming that the bible stories, about the period before the Babylonian exile, are actual history is mistaken. It is a mixture of actual handed down stories/history combined with stories from other religions, with a heavy dose of propaganda for a dualist (later monotheistic) religion and for a Jewish state of ‘Great-Israel’ (Judah _plus_ the south) . ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahweh-the-beginnings/493932/45 "2009-04-28T15:33:52Z")
Judah _was_ the south. You mean Judah plus the north. Everything else was right on. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahweh-the-beginnings/493932/46 "2009-04-28T17:58:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Everything else was right on. I’m not sure that that is true. At what point in history did Satan shift from being God’s auditor/prosecutor to being God’s adversary? Job is old enough to have been written while Satan was one of God’s minions. In Chronicles and in Zechariah, Satan could very well be playing the same role. So at what point did Satan actually become the adversary? ETA: In some variants of Zechariah, the name Satan is actually replaced by “the Accuser.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahweh-the-beginnings/493932/47 "2009-04-28T18:38:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I’m not sure that that is true. At what point in history did Satan shift from being God’s auditor/prosecutor to being God’s adversary? Job is old enough to have been written while Satan was one of God’s minions. > > In Chronicles and in Zechariah, Satan could very well be playing the same role. > > So at what point did Satan actually become the adversary? > ETA: In some variants of Zechariah, the name Satan is actually replaced by “the Accuser.” OK, except for that part. The broad outlines of a “good vs evil” dynamic and and eschaton/day of judgement are Persian, though. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahweh-the-beginnings/493932/48 "2009-04-28T22:31:24Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > But still, I have to say that I really don’t see what point you’re trying to make other than that "historical reconstructions of these events are **speculative reconstructions** :eek: ", which, unless you think that no one was aware of that point, seems rather odd to feel necessary to rant about. Let me put it to you this way. I can, without even bothering to look up source material, construct a far more probably case for an alternative version of dozens of historical events. This kind of pseudo-historical speculation is remarkably thin on evidence to the point of uselessness. I do not disdain the mind that came up with it; I suggest the mind has wasted its time. **Latro** actually pointed out a much better thesis in one post. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahweh-the-beginnings/493932/49 "2009-04-28T23:32:27Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Let me put it to you this way. I can, without even bothering to look up source material, construct a far more probably case for an alternative version of dozens of historical events. This kind of pseudo-historical speculation is remarkably thin on evidence to the point of uselessness. I do not disdain the mind that came up with it; I suggest the mind has wasted its time. **Latro** actually pointed out a much better thesis in one post. Latro’s history occurs at a different period of time than that which I cover (mine being something more like 1400-800 BCE where his is more around ~600 BCE), nor are the two conflicting in any way so far as I can tell. And again, if you think there are more credible reconstructions, you really don’t need to be shy. So far as I’m aware what I posted is the currently accepted reconstruction of the very beginnings of Yahweh, but I can’t profess to fear the discovery that I had accidentally slipped into a minority sect of thought. If there’s a different thought that’s more commonly accepted by the pros, I’m happy to hear it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yahweh-the-beginnings/493932.md?page=2)