# Yale Basketball Sexual Misconduct **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 15, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029 "2016-03-15T01:06:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/21 "2016-03-15T13:53:24Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > So you don’t know anything at all about the situation. But it’s still an outrage. > > It may not be a “straight he said she said” situation. The thing that’s been overlooked is there may have been a confession. If only someone in the OP said that we don’t know if this is really a he said/she said situation. Seriously, if you can’t be arsed to actually read what I wrote why bother responding? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/22 "2016-03-15T13:54:14Z")
I understand why a school would do its own investigation and take its own disciplinary action. I do not understand why it would be viewed as an either-or matter of taking it to the school or the police. Why did the accuser not go to _both_? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/23 "2016-03-15T13:56:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I understand why a school would do its own investigation and take its own disciplinary action. I do not understand why it would be viewed as an either-or matter of taking it to the school or the police. Why did the accuser not go to _both_? Probably because reporting a rape or other sex crime to law enforcement can be a horrible experience. Most rapes go unreported for that reason. Of course, she may also have been lying and not want to risk being prosecuted herself. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/24 "2016-03-15T13:58:46Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > It sounds like you don’t think he received a fair shake, given this statement, “I know what justice looks like and it doesn’t look like this. His life has been irreparably altered by what looks to be little more than a kangaroo court.” Literally the sentence before that “Nor do I know that he didn’t receive a fair shake”. I’m not sure what is so hard to comprehend about this. I can’t say that Yale’s process was fair or unfair. But a confidential accusation tried in a secret process by interested parties gives me no confidence that it is fair. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/25 "2016-03-15T14:01:06Z")
Well, what’s your point then? Do you think a private university’s disciplinary proceedings should be public record? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/26 "2016-03-15T14:13:51Z")
From a New York Times [article](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/15/sports/basketball/yale-basketball-captain-says-he-was-wrongfully-expelled.html) on the case, “The mechanism Yale has put in place to handle sexual misconduct complaints emphasizes confidentiality to make students feel comfortable coming forward. If the students choose, the matter can also be settled without the involvement of law enforcement.” ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/27 "2016-03-15T14:21:50Z")
Central to this vignette quoted below is some men’s puzzlement that a woman would casually and quickly re-connect with someone who had just forcibly raped her and some women’s opinion that a woman doing that is easy to believe and does not impact her veracity. Institutions can do as they wish in terms of administrative discipline but if someone’s college career and reputation is going to get nuked on a pure “he said - she said” there needs to be a fairly rigorous standard of proof or lawsuits are going to fall like rain and in the case of the elite institutions it will be from people who have the means to follow through. I think where the issue becomes differentiated from usual administrative HR stuff is that a university, for students, is not exactly like a corporation. Few if any HR depts. I know would take on the investigation and prosecution of something as serious as a rape accusation completely separate from any legal determination or investigation but that’s what colleges are expected to do in some cases. At some point there will be enough legal pain inflicted to reform this process and that’s what we’re seeing now. When you have accusations as serious as rape being handled on extra-legal investigative and punishment justice tracks by non-law enforcement administrative boards with (effectively in some cases) the presumption of guilt flipped onto the accused you’re going to have a mess on your hands. > [@](#): > > Jack Montague was expelled from Yale University on February 10, 2016 after a panel of the Yale University-Wide Committee found that he had unconsented-to sex 15 months earlier, in October 2014, with a female student who is currently a junior at Yale. He was expelled during the second semester of his senior year. > > Last week, the media widely reported on statements made by Yale students and posters put up on campus which condemned Jack Montague directly as the named culprit and as a rapist, thus slandering him with this accusation. He was never accused of rape and Yale took no steps to correct these actions. As a result, Mr. Montague has no choice but to correct the record. > > The University hired an independent investigator to investigate this matter and, as reported by her, the facts not in dispute and as stated in the female student’s account are these: > > The two students developed a relationship that led to them sleeping together in Jack’s room on four occasions in the fall of 2014. > > On the first occasion, the woman joined Jack in bed and stayed the night. > > On the second occasion, she entered his bed voluntarily, removed all of her clothes and, during the night, woke him to perform oral sex. > > On the third occasion, she joined him in bed, voluntarily took off all her clothing, and they had sexual intercourse by consent. > > On the fourth occasion, she joined him in bed, voluntarily removed all of her clothes, and they had sexual intercourse. Then they got up, left the room and went separate ways. Later that same night, she reached out to him to meet up, then returned to his room voluntarily, and spent the rest of the night in his bed with him. > > The sole dispute is as to the sexual intercourse in the fourth episode. She stated that she did not consent to it. He said that she did. > > A year later she reported the incident to a Title IX coordinator. A Title IX official – not her – filed a formal complaint with the University-Wide Committee. > > Only two persons could have known what happened on that fourth night. The panel chose to believe the woman, by a “preponderance of the evidence.” We believe that it defies logic and common sense that a woman would seek to re-connect and get back into bed with a man who she says forced her to have unwanted sex just hours earlier. And yet the Dean accepted this conclusion and ordered Jack to be expelled. His decision was then upheld by the Provost. > > We strongly believe that the decision to expel Jack Montague was wrong, unfairly determined, arbitrary, and excessive by any rational measure. Yale has been oblivious to the catastrophic and irreparable damage resulting from these allegations and determinations. The expulsion not only deprives Jack of the degree which he was only three months short of earning, but has simultaneously destroyed both his educational and basketball careers. > > We cannot help but think it not coincidental that the decision by Yale officials to seek expulsion of the captain of its basketball team followed by little more than a month the report of the Association of American Universities (AAU) which was highly critical of the incidence of sexual assault on the Yale campus, and the Yale President’s promise, in response, to “redouble our efforts.” From what appears, Jack has been pilloried as a “whipping boy” for a campus problem that has galvanized national attention. > > There is no doubt that institutions of higher learning must take the problem of sexual abuse seriously and take effective steps to protect its women students. But that obligation cannot justify imposing so drastic a punishment on the basis of such flimsy evidence. > > Mr. Montague intends to sue Yale University to vindicate his rights. > > Montague’s expulsion has been a source of controversy on the Yale campus over the last month. The school did not at first reveal why Montague was expelled, but rumors about an alleged sexual assault began to swirl when the basketball team’s public display of support for Montague was met with posters alleging that the team was “supporting a rapist.” Last week, both The New York Times and the Yale Daily News reported that Montague was suspended for sexual misconduct. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/28 "2016-03-15T14:31:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, what’s your point then? Do you think a private university’s disciplinary proceedings should be public record? Redacted to protect privacy, sure. Otherwise, where is the oversight for the process going to come from? Our basic legal rights (public trial, jury of your peers, right to confront accuser, call witnesses, evidence standards, etc.) have evolved over nearly a thousand years as a response to various abuses. If you remove the safeguards, it’s obvious that the abuse will return at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/29 "2016-03-15T14:36:04Z")
No safeguards are being “removed.” We’re talking about a private university. For the most part, the legal rights you list apply only when the government is acting against you. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/30 "2016-03-15T14:50:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No safeguards are being “removed.” We’re talking about a private university. For the most part, the legal rights you list apply only when the government is acting against you. Yes I know that but this doesn’t address my point. The point is that these rights are there for a reason. A trial process without them has obvious holes where injustice can seep in. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/31 "2016-03-15T14:54:10Z")
It does address your point. You just don’t like the answer. If all these rights should apply to a collegiate disciplinary proceeding, where else should they apply? If my employer wants to fire me, should it be required to hold an open hearing in front of all my co-workers? If T-Mobile wants to cut off my cell service for nonpayment, should there be a mobile phone bill tribunal? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/32 "2016-03-15T15:13:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It does address your point. You just don’t like the answer. If all these rights should apply to a collegiate disciplinary proceeding, where else should they apply? If my employer wants to fire me, should it be required to hold an open hearing in front of all my co-workers? If T-Mobile wants to cut off my cell service for nonpayment, should there be a mobile phone bill tribunal? Anyone who has worked knows that the firing process, for example, is rife with abuse. Your example proves my point. Still, the situations aren’t remotely comparable: Yale is compelled by Title IX to respond to rape allegations and must follow certain processes. There’s no federal law requiring companies to fire people. Employment is (generally) at will and it’s understood that an employment relationship can be terminated at any point. Universities are different. Once enrolled a student can expect to remain enrolled until graduation. Firing someone (generally) doesn’t cost the employee anything of value. It only removes future earnings. A student who is expelled loses recognition of their past performance. If they transfer to another university, they almost certainly will not get credit for all of their classes. Thus, they lose the value they spent their time and money to gain. Employers generally don’t declare that their employees are culpable of a felony while firing them. In this case, Yale is. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/33 "2016-03-15T16:18:20Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Central to this vignette quoted below is some men’s puzzlement that a woman would casually and quickly re-connect with someone who had just forcibly raped her and some women’s opinion that a woman doing that is easy to believe and does not impact her veracity. > > Institutions can do as they wish in terms of administrative discipline but if someone’s college career and reputation is going to get nuked on a pure “he said - she said” there needs to be a fairly rigorous standard of proof or lawsuits are going to fall like rain and in the case of the elite institutions it will be from people who have the means to follow through. > > I think where the issue becomes differentiated from usual administrative HR stuff is that a university, for students, is not exactly like a corporation. Few if any HR depts. I know would take on the investigation and prosecution of something as serious as a rape accusation completely separate from any legal determination or investigation but that’s what colleges are expected to do in some cases. At some point there will be enough legal pain inflicted to reform this process and that’s what we’re seeing now. When you have accusations as serious as rape being handled on extra-legal investigative and punishment justice tracks by non-law enforcement administrative boards with (effectively in some cases) the presumption of guilt flipped onto the accused you’re going to have a mess on your hands. I expect that Yale will be forced to re-admit Mr Montague just as Harvard Law was forced to re-admit Brandon Winston. [http://brandonproject.org/the-facts/](http://brandonproject.org/the-facts/) > [@](#): > > May 2012 > > Harvard Law School Faculty reviews the findings of the Administrative Board and determines that the Board’s findings are not supported by substantial evidence, the applicable standard. The faculty dismisses the case. Mr. Winston has missed the 2011-2012 academic year. He returns to school in the fall of 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/34 "2016-03-15T16:24:56Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Anyone who has worked knows that the firing process, for example, is rife with abuse. Your example proves my point. And… what? This is just how disputes between private parties work. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/35 "2016-03-15T16:30:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No safeguards are being “removed.” We’re talking about a private university. For the most part, the legal rights you list apply only when the government is acting against you. True, but I think most people would agree that any standard of “best practices” would include those rights to the extent reasonably possible. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/36 "2016-03-15T16:31:23Z")
Best practices for what? Can you think of any other private dispute resolution system that involves a jury and takes place in a public forum? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/37 "2016-03-15T16:32:06Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > True, but I think most people would agree that any standard of “best practices” would include those rights to the extent reasonably possible. This. I kinda want life to be fair. Not just the government. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/38 "2016-03-15T16:40:25Z")
One interesting question: is there any way form me to get iron-clad proof of consent that will hold up in any kind of institutional tribunal or court? Maybe a phone app and/or website where a woman can give iron-clad, non-retractable consent for say, a 24-hour period. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/39 "2016-03-15T16:43:01Z")
Well, that’s kind of a funny thing about consent: in the context of sexual relations, it is always retractable. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/40 "2016-03-15T16:44:24Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > One interesting question: is there any way form me to get iron-clad proof of consent that will hold up in any kind of institutional tribunal or court? > > Maybe a phone app and/or website where a woman can give iron-clad, non-retractable consent for say, a 24-hour period. non-retractable? Seriously? If you’re at the short strokes and she says “I changed my mind, stop now!” your only legal move is to stop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029.md?page=3)