# Yale Basketball Sexual Misconduct **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 15, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029 "2016-03-15T01:06:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/121 "2016-03-16T21:22:55Z")
ISTM that people are confusing “possible” with “probable”. Yes, it’s possible that people who have been sexually assaulted will act in ways that seem counterintuitive. But that doesn’t mean you can completely ignore their actions in assessing what most likely happened in otherwise ambiguous circumstances. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, that’s not an issue. What we have here is an organization enforcing its own code of conduct, which is something that every organization in the world does on a daily basis. > > None of your arguments make sense unless your position is that no university is qualified to expel a student, ever. That is a novel proposition, to say the least. Here’s a question: do universities typically have their own codes of conduct for other non-study related matters? Meaning, I understand they’ll need their own codes of conduct for things like cheating on exams and so on. But what about assaults, robberies and the like? Do they have a separate proceeding beyond the legal system? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/122 "2016-03-16T21:39:11Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > People don’t just make up rape accusations for fun. How do you explain the UVA/Rolling Stones story? ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/123 "2016-03-16T21:45:30Z")
> [@](#): > > If getting naked into bed with someone with whom you have had sex previously isn’t positive consent, then something further is required. no wonder some of you are worried about being accused of rape. Of COURSE something further is required- actual consent. What a woman is wearing or not wearing and what she is doing or not doing is completely irrelevant. If she doesn’t consent, it’s rape. Being naked and being in a bed do not constitute consent. As to the university thing, think about it like a job. Many workplaces will simply fire employees who engage in questionable conduct, even if it never amounts to a legal conviction. You violate their policies about sexual harassment? They’ll hold a brief hearing then escort you off the premises. This kid got fired from a university for violating their policies. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/124 "2016-03-16T22:32:33Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > no wonder some of you are worried about being accused of rape. Of COURSE something further is required- actual consent. What a woman is wearing or not wearing and what she is doing or not doing is completely irrelevant. If she doesn’t consent, it’s rape. Being naked and being in a bed do not constitute consent. > > As to the university thing, think about it like a job. Many workplaces will simply fire employees who engage in questionable conduct, even if it never amounts to a legal conviction. You violate their policies about sexual harassment? They’ll hold a brief hearing then escort you off the premises. This kid got fired from a university for violating their policies. You are letting your own experiences cloud your judgment. When the issue of consent cannot be determined, ancillary evidence (such as state of undress and actions) are quite relevant. As to the university “thing;” I can assure you that it’s not like a job at all. I practice HR/employment law in the most plaintiff-friendly state in the Union, and I assure you that employment inquiries (the ones that hold up in court, anyway) are quite involved. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/125 "2016-03-16T22:42:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You have no idea what’s going on, do you? I do actually. “Extra-legal” was a poor of words on my part. I get that the college administration has the perfect right, within some limits, to hold hearings on whatever student behavior criminal or non-criminal they choose to moderate and that administrative hearings about employee behavior happen all the time. However, in my view there are certain accusations like sexual assault that are so serious and potentially complex to investigate on multiple levels that a procedurally opaque college tribunal is a questionable vehicle through which to determine what happened. So yeah, re hearings they can do as they will until the legal and financial pain via lawsuits becomes intolerable. We’ll have to see where that point is. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/126 "2016-03-16T23:42:12Z")
> [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](#): > > Because that which is not criminal may nevertheless be objectionable in an academic setting and this require non-criminal intervention. Or even that which never occurred at all. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/127 "2016-03-17T00:22:19Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > McCardle considers the 41% figure more reliable than the 2%. Sure she does, as the 2% is completely worthless from a statistical standpoint, while the study that returned 41% was at least a study. A study with a tiny sample size and thoroughly worthless methodology, but at least a study. So, we’re comparing completely useless to possibly completely useless. In that case, I guess the latter **might** be more reliable than the former, although they both suck. What McArdle doesn’t do is consider the 41% to be in any way, shape, or form accurate. [QUOTE=McArdle] We don’t know. Anyone who insists that we do know should be corrected or ignored. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=McArdle] The 41 percent number…should be used only with grave caution. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=McArdle] But so should any other numbers, such as the 8 percent figure that is commonly attributed to the FBI. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=McArdle] So instead we get the war of bad statistics, with each side claiming certainty when all we really have are dark crimes and dark numbers. [/QUOTE] I find the above funny as only one of us seems certain about the where the truth lies, and it ain’t me. [QUOTE=Belowjob2.0] It’s clear that the “vast majority” of allegations claim just isn’t supported by any data. It’ rumor and hearsay on top of rumor and hearsay. [/QUOTE] It’s absolutely supported by data, just not definitively. It’s really hard (but not impossible) to find data that counters the “vast majority” claim, but fairly easy to find plenty of sources that put the number of false reports in the single digit percentage range. While we’re at it, would you like to give your definition of “vast majority”, so we at least know what target to aim for? ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/128 "2016-03-17T00:32:11Z")
> [@](#): > > you are letting your own experiences cloud your judgment. When the issue of consent cannot be determined, ancillary evidence (such as state of undress and actions) are quite relevant. no they aren’t. I’m sorry, but bringing up actions and state of dress just feed into the rape culture. Even if I stagger around buck-naked and very drunk there is no excuse for anyone to rape me. Ever. Under any circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/129 "2016-03-17T00:33:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I, uh, I kind of got to agree there. Uggghhh…yeah… ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/130 "2016-03-17T00:46:20Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > no they aren’t. I’m sorry, but bringing up actions and state of dress just feed into the rape culture. Even if I stagger around buck-naked and very drunk there is no excuse for anyone to rape me. Ever. Under any circumstances. Yes, but you’re presupposing the existence of the rape. That is where your experience clouds your judgment. If there is no indication whether or not consent unequivocally existed, we must examine the circumstances in order to determine whether it is more likely than not that consent occurred or did not occur. And if the accuser willfully entered the bed naked, slept next to the accused, left, then returned and slept again,\*\* in the absence of any other information,\*\* it is more likely that any sexual contact between the two was consensual. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/131 "2016-03-17T00:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > And if the accuser willfully entered the bed naked, slept next to the accused, left, then returned and slept again, in the absence of any other information, it is more likely that any sexual contact between the two was consensual. we have other evidence. The testimony of one of the parties that whatever happened was not consensual. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/132 "2016-03-17T01:09:42Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > we have other evidence. The testimony of one of the parties that whatever happened was not consensual. And the testimony of the accused that it WAS. And no indicator that the testimony of either one is more believable than the other. In fact, all we have is the hearsay testimony of the Title IX officer that the accuser says it was nonconsensual. So the testimony conflicts and it’s back to zero. In the face of that conflict, you have to look at the ancillary evidence. And in this case, the ancillary evidence favors the accused. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/133 "2016-03-17T01:12:01Z")
The idea that the clothing or behavior of a victim has anything to do with a crime is just weird. If a man wearing a fancy suit is robbed, we don’t blame him for stupidly wearing a fancy suit advertising he might have some money on him. If a naked woman gets into bed with what she thinks is her boyfriend in order to get some sleep, there’s no excuse if he then does things to her she doesn’t like and doesn’t want to have happen to her. In most cases of rape there is no evidence other than the victim’s testimony. This case is no different. Only a real pervert would want to have sex with someone who wasn’t clearly enjoying the experience. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/134 "2016-03-17T01:16:51Z")
Post like the above are why some men think “WTF?” when it comes to some rape claims. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/135 "2016-03-17T01:23:53Z")
that’s the whole idea behind “rape culture.” Blame the woman for her behavior, her clothing, her well, I don’t know, being a woman. Somehow it’s her fault. When in actual fact the real problem is the behavior of men. This thread is quite disgusting. I can’t believe people in this decade actually think that what a woman is wearing has anything to do with whether it’s ok to rape her. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/136 "2016-03-17T01:33:57Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > that’s the whole idea behind “rape culture.” Blame the woman for her behavior, her clothing, her well, I don’t know, being a woman. Somehow it’s her fault. When in actual fact the real problem is the behavior of men. > This thread is quite disgusting. I can’t believe people in this decade actually think that what a woman is wearing has anything to do with whether it’s ok to rape her. You are, quite simply, ignoring evidence because it does not support the narrative you have already chosen to believe. You are doubling down by accusing people who are trying to remain objective of being “disgusting.” Your position is only hurt by your “advocacy;” I say again that your experience has clouded your judgment. While I am sorry about what happened to you, it has no bearing on this matter. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/137 "2016-03-17T01:42:51Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > The idea that the clothing or behavior of a victim has anything to do with a crime is just weird. If a man wearing a fancy suit is robbed, we don’t blame him for stupidly wearing a fancy suit advertising he might have some money on him. If a naked woman gets into bed with what she thinks is her boyfriend in order to get some sleep, there’s no excuse if he then does things to her she doesn’t like and doesn’t want to have happen to her. In most cases of rape there is no evidence other than the victim’s testimony. This case is no different. > > Only a real pervert would want to have sex with someone who wasn’t clearly enjoying the experience. [http://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Begging-the-Question.html](http://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Begging-the-Question.html) > [@](#): > > The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument’s premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it. In other words, you assume without proof the stand/position, or a significant part of the stand, that is in question. Begging the question is also called arguing in a circle. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/138 "2016-03-17T01:47:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Here’s a question: do universities typically have their own codes of conduct for other non-study related matters? Meaning, I understand they’ll need their own codes of conduct for things like cheating on exams and so on. But what about assaults, robberies and the like? Do they have a separate proceeding beyond the legal system? Sure, some areas that come to mind are drugs and alcohol, vandalism, some types of assaults (think fist fights, mostly). ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/139 "2016-03-17T01:51:52Z")
But we don’t have access to all the evidence. Maybe there is a smoking gun. Maybe there are text message records or parts of the accused statement that paint a damning picture. Or maybe there isn’t. We don’t know much more expect that whatever was presented was convincing to at least one body. So what is the value of speculating on the accuser’s state of dress? MAYBE if we were the jury on an actual trial where we could trust that all of the relevant evidence was being presented we may be able to use that as part of the puzzle. But without the rest of the pieces, we don’t have a puzzle to put together. We just have a skeletal outline of a story. Now if you just want to idly speculate on liklihood, fine. But we are talking about an actual act. Something that either happened or didn’t. Likelihood has nothing to do with it. It’s either 100% likely or 100% unlikely (because it did or did not happen). Either the standard of evidence was met or it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029/140 "2016-03-17T01:53:34Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s a he said/she said situation and I don’t think people can reliably determine when someone is lying in the absence of other evidence > > We don’t even really know if it is just he said/she said because we only get one side of the story > [@astro](#): > > Looking at the timeline (if correct) unless there’s some unrevealed smoking gun in the woodpile it’s pretty much a straight “he said - she said” so Yale’s ruling based the “preponderance of the evidence” statement is interesting. > > . “He said-she said” doesn’t equate to an automatic impasse, not even in a court of law. It’s perfectly valid to hear both sides and decide which one you believe more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-basketball-sexual-misconduct/749029.md?page=8)