Yes, I suppose so; and given this, it amazes me that any man, esp. a college student, is willing to take the risk of having sex ever with anyone.
Men will put up with rather a lot of risk for sex. Think about how vulnerable our ancestors were, fucking out on the savannah.
Now sonny, if I freeze I can’t get down. And if I get down, I can’t freeze.
A good book that talks about all this is Missoula: Rape and the Justice System in a College Town, by Jon Krakauer.
I’m not clear what your contention is at this point. It seems like it’s that Yale’s process is unfair but that’s how things work between private parties.
:smack:
What I meant to write was, " One interesting question: is there any way for ***men ***to get iron-clad proof of consent that will hold up in any kind of institutional tribunal or court?"
Not “me”. I do just fine by not sticking my dick in the crazy.
You could always record the encounter, in states where one-way recording is legal.
Yes, basically. My contention is simply that it’s odd for you to single out this particular university and this particular student when your concerns apply equally to every institution (not just schools) and everybody who suffers negative consequences from a finding that they did Something Bad.
shrug This case is national news and a particular egregious example of a wide spread issue. Unfortunately, that’s what has to be the basis for discussion because there’s no way for anyone to do a systematic analysis and generate some data.
But beyond that, you’re wrong about this being a matter between private parties. The Feds are a driving force behind many of these new procedures. Universities that fail to adhere to the guidelines are subject to enforcement action.
What if she says, Stop!, six months after you’re done hanging out with her? The retroactive stop, after she realizes the relationship she wanted was actually just a fling?
You could try only having sex with people you trust. The vast majority of rape accusations are true and that doesn’t even take into account the enormous number of rapes that are never reported.
As to the issue at hand, many women are extremely confused when someone they think of as a friend/partner turns on them and rapes them. I wouldn’t read too much into the fact she got back into bed or took a long time to report it. She probably couldn’t even process what happened for a long time.
And “you” could try to not hang out with people that will rape you.
I don’t think “non-retractable” means what you think it means. The way you wrote it, you could have consensual sex with a woman, then 23 hours later burst into her room and force her into sex again, and she wouldn’t be able to do anything about it.
In the Yale Montague case, both parties acknowledge that they’d had had consensual sex before the alleged assault happened.
There was an ongoing, consensual sexual relationship in the Columbia University sex assault allegation too, the Sulkowicz-Nungesser case.
The vast majority of sexual assault accusations are true? Don’t think so. False accusations could run as high as 40%.
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-09-19/how-many-rape-reports-are-false
what does that have to do with anything? I had a 15-year relationship with my ex before he tried to rape me. And no, I didn’t report it.
I have no idea what the rate of false accusations of rape is. No one does. How could they possibly measure it? However, since women rarely get anything but grief for reporting rapes (false or otherwise) it’s kind of hard to believe false accusations are all that common. Sure, there are some.
You claimed that the vast majority of accusations are true. Are you retracting your original claim?
What that means, from an evidentiary standpoint, is two things:
- a pattern of consensual sexual intercourse; and
- no official indication by the victim that the episode in question was any different.
Each of these, and both of them, are indicators that the episode in question was consensual.
They are not dispositive. But nothing is dispositive in a he-said-she-said case. That’s why there are evidentiary standards.
In what way is this odd at all? This is RAPE we’re talking about. Something so wrong that we’ve criminalized it. It’s not just “Something Bad.”
And a school is not like other private businesses. The customers don’t tend to live at private business and create a community larger than many actual towns. A college campus is more like a town than the traditional business.
Someone has a secret meeting and kicks me out of Walmart for being a nuisance? Not nearly as big a deal as someone getting kicked out of their home because a private tribunal decided they were guilty of a horrible crime.
I really hope becoming a lawyer isn’t blinding you to these things. I can’t remember you ever making these types of arguments before the Trump violence thread.
We need lawyers that stay in touch with the morals of the populace, and don’t become lawful neutral.
Presumably you missed the part in the Trump thread where I said I hope people keep protesting at Trump events. I am discussing the protestors’ legal rights, not the validity of their positions.
Yes, being accused of rape is very bad. But if the school can’t take action on allegations of rape then you are providing more protection for alleged rapists than alleged cheaters, or even alleged dorm curfew breakers.
The same logic would prohibit an employer from firing an employee who raped a coworker.
Wait a minute… Am I reading that right? She admits that they had had consensual sex on other occasions, and that she consensually got naked and got into his bed on the occasion in question? These points aren’t in dispute? It seems to me that any reasonable person would interpret that as granting consent for sex.