Well, you might try reading the thread. But since you didn’t, I’ll explain again: a rape is both a crime and a violation of the university’s conduct policy. The university is not required to ignore violations simply because they are also crimes. If it did, then people who committed major violations would be held to a much lower standard than people who commit minor ones.
Because that which is not criminal may nevertheless be objectionable in an academic setting and this require non-criminal intervention.
If its its not THAT serious maybe it should be a book report or something for punishment. Not an expulsion and a waste of a ton of your money, 3 or 4 years of study, and a ruined reputation?
I have no idea why this individual woman waited, but I can add that the new federal mandates related to IX include an emphasis on universities communicating their policies and process related to sexual misconduct. So in the past year, many campus beefed up their information campaigns. In most cases, this information was already available to students if they went looking for it in a handbook or online, but now, students were receiving emails or written materials that were very clear about topics like what is considered sexual misconduct, what support services related to sexual misconduct are available, and what to do to report. Colleges are seeing some increased reporting which is likely a reflection of these communications.
In general, my gut reaction is that colleges should get out of the business of investigating crimes, call the police, that’s what they’re there for. But, realistically, there are some layers to this issue. There are a lot of behaviors that aren’t criminal, but still fall into the category of things private colleges don’t care to have going on. In some ways, these judicial processes can be viewed in a similar way to criminal v. civil trials. As a layperson, I still don’t understand how OJ Simpson could be found innocent in a criminal court, but found responsible in a civil court (I mean yes, I get the basics, but I really don’t get it emotionally) and this is kind of like that.
The university judicial process can’t send this kid to JAIL, only real courts can do that. I suspect that’s also why the process doesn’t use the word rape – rape means something in a criminal sense, and this is not a criminal court.
Speaking not about this particular case, but in a general sense from my own experience, some things that have swayed the decision in a college judicial process in scenarios that might have been painted as “he said, she said” scenarios include:
- a confession from the respondent
- a statement from the respondent that amounts to a confession even though it wasn’t intended to be one, such as “of course there was consent, she was passed out very peacefully and didn’t say no!”
- reports (confidential reports) about statements to others made by the respondent similar to the above
- texts or other actual records that support statements similar to the above. You would not BELIEVE how many people send texts or IMs like that.
Again, I have no knowledge of this case, it’s entirely possible the basketball player is a victim of a conspiracy. But, nothing in the reporting (so far) about Yale’s process struck me as unusual or suspect; nothing made me say “WHOA, that is a really problematic way of handling that.” The thing that pinged my interest the most, in fact, was the subsequent show of support and following protests. Generally, that kind of advocacy is given A LOT of leeway on campuses, even at most private colleges, but I think someone could make a good case that the college needed to do more to intervene when individuals were being called out (I’m not even sure I would be convinced by that case, but I would certainly entertain the argument.)
Well, if you run a school you are free to decide to be lenient. Personally, I think non-criminal sexual misconduct warrants expulsion, but it takes all sorts.
I don’t see how that is the case.
If getting naked into bed with someone with whom you have had sex previously isn’t positive consent, then something further is required. What is that something, and did the basketball player do that something?
We certainly don’t have complete information.
I would pick “not particularly good at analogies”.
Regards,
Shodan
Understatement of the year.
That post set the rape discussion back 50 years.
Unless maybe the point was even no rapey things can be made rapey if the woman wants it…which I doubt was the goal.
I read the thread and I object to the University being involved in any way at all. It would make more sense to involve the authorities and have that matter proceed. If an, for example, an indictment is made then the University could get involved via-a-vis its own code of conduct. This isn’t a case of plagiarism or even a theft but an accusation involving a more serious crime of sexual assault.
The issue is that you are having an unqualified organisation attempt to ape judicial proceedings which serves neither justice or due process.
There’s a LOT of room between “not that serious” and “non-criminal.”
Non-criminal sexual misconduct warrants a great deal more than a book report.
What I and others are saying is that the manner in which (and the process by which) the punishment is imposed is often unfair, opaque, and deleterious to the accused.
And the legal system is even set up for that. Let your grass get too high? Drive a bit too fast? Messed up your taxes? And on and on.
Well, that’s nice.
Generally, the authorities are involved and the matter does proceed.
And if an indictment is not made, what then? A criminal investigation may take months or even years. What if the student is charged, but not convicted?
What’s your point? Why should accusations of the most serious honor code violations be ignored while violations of minor ones should be acted on?
No, that’s not an issue. What we have here is an organization enforcing its own code of conduct, which is something that every organization in the world does on a daily basis.
None of your arguments make sense unless your position is that no university is qualified to expel a student, ever. That is a novel proposition, to say the least.
What is required is consent to the specific and particular sexual act. Do you have trouble knowing the difference between people who are enthusiastically enjoying sex with you, and people who do not want to be having sex with you?
Again, it does not take that much imagination to think up situations where a person may not want to participate in a particular sex act, even if they had just gotten naked. If she was picturing protected vanilla sex while conscious and he forced her to do bareback anal after the roofies kick in, that’s a problem.
I don’t know if that’s what happened, but it’s certainly not unheard of for people to request activities that their partner is not comfortable with.
I’m not sure how better to explain that a place to which one applies, that maintains as an integral part of its mission a community environment, and which has a code of conduct to which applicants agree to adhere in furtherance of that mission, is free to enforce that code according to standards that it imposes.
The legal system is NOT “set up” to investigate or enforce academic transgressions.
The issue here is that the conduct in question is both an academic AND a criminal violation, with significant stigma attached to each and either- the fact that each stigma is indistinguishable from the other in the “real world” warrants greater protection for the accused, in my opinion.
In a nutshell, this Yale student is branded a rapist without the procedural protections that should go along with such branding. The fact that the general public cares little that a tribunal and not a court convicted him, and that he has to explain this distinction at all, and the fact that one can replace neither a year of one’s life nor a Yale education, makes it incumbent on Yale to protect the accused. They don’t have to. But they should.
Hearing part of a story doesn’t tell you exactly what happened. I was lucky, but I easily could have not been. And I’m sure the driver could have told a story that makes it look like I was crazy or complicit.
This is correct; that said, the disagreement is over whether more due process should be afforded the accused. And I think that debate is one worth having.
I agree, though I doubt very much whether any agreement on what sort of process is due would ever be reached.
I regretfully agree with your agreement.
OMG.
So there was scenario where you mighta got raped? But it was probably (actually actualy) some random dude that was helping you out?
This post/point is even worse than the first IMO.
Ugh. Maybe I didn’t tell the story particularly well. It was a real threat, and he changed his mind. it’s not really critical, except maybe it makes the point even more. It’s hard to tell what happened based on barebones accounts. These are often not neat and clean stories. People are complex, even criminals and victims.
I, uh, I kind of got to agree there.