# Yale English Majors: Stop Teaching Us About White Male Poets. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 10, 2016, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008 "2016-06-10T09:47:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/21 "2016-06-10T15:09:30Z")
Once, just once, I would like to see one of these Universities that face non sense issues such as this reply this way. “You not like (insert issue here) then fine. Leave. You saw the course book prior to entering so leave. Be in class tomorrow morning 8 am, or be off campus with your room cleaned out.” But alas, will never happen. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/22 "2016-06-10T15:22:57Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Sorry, the intro course for English Majors really needs to study those guys. Surely later classes can cast a wider net. Although sticking to English-language only is a bit restricting–why have these students chosen such a narrow major? I majored in English. I took the intro courses that everyone has to take. We studied all those guys. Sorry, if you like to read, those guys are interesting. Those courses were only three out of the 15 or so courses I was required to take to get my degree. I took Women’s lit., which was a mix of Brits and Americans, and I took a course called African-American autobiography, which had both men and women authors. I also took a course on the Harlem Renaissance. We read novels and poetry for that. Several of my other courses included women and non-white authors. In fact, even my survey courses included Jane Austen and Mary Shelley, and the American lit. course was a big mix of things. I also took a course called Children’s Lit., because it sounded fun, and it was a 300 level class, so I thought it might be easier than some of the other 300 classes, because it was cross-listed for the Ed. majors. (It was easy, but the expectations were clearly higher for anyone who was an English major.) It was about half and half women and men authors, and had some African-American authors, as well as some Asian American authors. Actually, if you wanted to stick to white men once you took the core survey classes, you’d have to work pretty hard. You’d have to do it mostly by taking the 400-level seminars that were devoted to one author, or one work, like the seminar I did not take on _Ulysses_, or the Shakespeare class (which I also didn’t take, because I got plenty of Shakespeare, I didn’t need a whole class, but I wouldn’t have minded it had it been required). My university also had something called “Major works in translation,” where literature that influenced many English-language authors, but wasn’t English itself, was read. It included all sorts of stuff, from _The Epic of Gilgamesh_, to Kafka’s _The Metamorphosis_. That class got taught only every two or three years, and was cross-listed with Comp. Lit., but actually, I think there were a few Comp. Lit. courses that were cross-listed, including one on the Greek and Latin playwrights. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/23 "2016-06-10T15:37:55Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > I agree with them, but remember that you have to leave somebody out for every author you take in. > > I love “Goblin Market,” but it ain’t “Paradise Lost.” Your general point about trade-offs is true, but it isn’t literally true that authors have to be substituted one-for-one. You could spend a couple of days fewer on Eliot to talk about Barbauld. And, of course, making author-by-author comparisons is not really the point. The goal of Major English Poets is to ground students in the major traditions and canon of English poetry. Stipulating that this goal is more important than other potential prerequisites, there’s still a good argument that it cannot be effectively accomplished by _only_ studying the canon. Learning about pre-1900 English poetry without studying women and people of color is like trying to study what makes fish fishy without knowing anything about any other animals. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/24 "2016-06-10T15:42:10Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I think the kids may have a point on this one… > > This is an introductory survey course, right? Not everyone taking it is even going to major in English; for some, this class will help them decide. Anyone writing a literature thesis is necessarily going to have a lot more courses between this and that… > > English majors certainly need to study all these guys. But isn’t an introductory survey exactly the place to cast the widest net? One class can’t be _sufficient_ to teach “Shakespeare, Chaucer, Milton, and Eliot, among others.” Anyone who does study English literature in depth will be revisiting these figures anyway. What’s the harm in making room for Emily Dickinson or Langston Hughes? The course is specifically for [English Majors](http://english.yale.edu/undergraduate/what-english-125-126). It’s _not_ a shallow survey of all poets using the English language. > [@](#): > > Perhaps the most distinctive element of English at Yale is that we ask each of our majors to spend two semesters in the company of “Major English Poets”: Geoffrey Chaucer, Edmund Spenser, William Shakespeare, and John Donne in the fall; John Milton, Alexander Pope, William Wordsworth, and T. S. Eliot or another modern poet in the spring. All actually “English”–except for Eliot, who spent his life trying to forget he was born in St Louis. > [@](#): > > The methods of reading and writing taught in 125 and 126 are every bit as important as is the content of the syllabus. Students come away with a sharpened awareness of what it means to read with the attentiveness that great literature demands. The course is designed to teach analytical tools to be used in studying other writers. And I hope the female & non-white writers will be given more than cursory attention in later courses. Those completing the major probably hope for academic careers. Perhaps they can use their expensively trained brains to deepen scholarship about neglected writers. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/25 "2016-06-10T16:08:43Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > Oh Brother. Now we have to deal, [with this…](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/10/world/europe/period-full-stop-point-whatever-its-called-millennials-arent-using-it.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=mini-moth®ion=top-stories-below&WT.nav=top-stories-below) How long, Oh Lord? How long? The author chickened out He has each sentence in a new paragraph It makes it easier to read You almost don’t see the periods are missing But if you write this way you do OTOH if you’re txt was writen like many icy thesee days itll make no sens atall thats nearly olde english in it’s inscrutablness [ends with string of emojiis] ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/26 "2016-06-10T16:21:32Z")
> [@](#): > > ill-prepared to take higher-level courses relating to race, gender, sexuality, ethnicity, nationality, ability, Why on earth ARE there higher-level courses relating to these things? Is that what universities like Yale are mandated to teach? If a student chooses to major in one of those disciplines, there is ample opportunity to study the specialized literature relating to it. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/27 "2016-06-10T18:30:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Neither of them are English poets? They are assuredly noted poets of the English language, which is what I assume the “English” of the course title means. If they really mean English nationality (including the naturalized T.S. Eliot), then it is _definitely_ too narrow for an introductory survey. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/28 "2016-06-10T18:43:03Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > The course is specifically for [English Majors](http://english.yale.edu/undergraduate/what-english-125-126). It’s _not_ a shallow survey of all poets using the English language. It is explicitly an “introductory survey,” albeit “unlike most.” Of course no one expects it to cover “all poets using the English language.” But it purports to look into eight major figures, including Shakespeare, in one year. It can’t be _deep,_ except in examples. An English literature major will clearly have to revisit at least some of these guys anyway. Apart from Shakespeare, I don’t see that it would be a loss to switch out any three or four of the others in the interests of breadth and variety in those examples. They might even rotate through a list of dozens, between years or sections. The analytical methods certainly should not require specific works to practice upon. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/29 "2016-06-10T20:25:38Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > Oh Brother. Now we have to deal, [with this…](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/10/world/europe/period-full-stop-point-whatever-its-called-millennials-arent-using-it.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=mini-moth®ion=top-stories-below&WT.nav=top-stories-below) How long, Oh Lord? How long? I recall reading somewhere that text messages ending with a period tend to give the impression to the recipient that the person sending it is in a grumpy mood or trying to be curt. Edited to add, I should have read the rest of the linked article ������ ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/30 "2016-06-10T20:56:55Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > During my Yale undergrad days, I had an excellent course called “Poetics of the Late T’ang Dynasty.” The problem was it only included a bunch of Chinese poets from the ninth century. What th’ fuck, man? Post of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/31 "2016-06-12T06:46:41Z")
> [@](#): > > “I am a student at the [North Korea] Foreign Languages Institute. Reading Dickens and Shakespeare is the greatest, the only pleasure of my life.”… For him, Dickens and Shakespeare (which the regime permitted him to read with quite other ends in view) guaranteed the possibility not just of freedom but of truly human life itself. Theodore Dalrymple, [The Dystopian Imagination](http://www.city-journal.org/html/dystopian-imagination-12204.html). ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/32 "2016-06-12T06:58:56Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > If you do, realize that a classical education includes teaching of classical poets, the overwhelming majority of whom were white males, and deal with it. Uh, that’s their entire point. Unless you’re arguing that their work is inherently better than everyone else’s at the time, SOMEBODY made an actual decision that those white male poets were the be all and end all of their genre and country. Guess what demographics that person probably was? Why not cast the net just a tiny bit further afield when determining what authors and works absolutely have to be studied? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/33 "2016-06-12T09:13:26Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Not to spoil your regularly-scheduled dose of RO at those crazy college kids these days, but the petition doesn’t actually say what the OP says it does. Yip. And this is always the case. Why do so many people think that college students of all people would be so stupid that such a shallow, easily refuted argument could encompass their position? All this political correctness stuff is here for a reason. And that reason is not the myth that millennials can’t take care of themselves or are even doing worse than previous generations. Of course this is just about adding diversity to the system, not actually being bigoted towards white male authors. And isn’t that diversity the thing you guys say is what makes college so important? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/34 "2016-06-12T15:57:02Z")
One of our early prerequisites as a music major was an ethnomusicology class that emphasized systems of music from around the world. This did cast a wider net than going back to Hildegard von Bingen. I think what the students want is something similar. There really isn’t a need to sharpen the focus so immediately, especially for an introductory class which will decide if students want to continue with this field of study. In this case, I think there is merit to the students’ claims. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/35 "2016-06-12T16:57:16Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Uh, that’s their entire point. Unless you’re arguing that their work is inherently better than everyone else’s at the time, SOMEBODY made an actual decision that those white male poets were the be all and end all of their genre and country. Guess what demographics that person probably was? Why not cast the net just a tiny bit further afield when determining what authors and works absolutely have to be studied? The main choice was made by thousands of SOMEBODIES whose purchasing/discussion habits made it possible for white male poets to make a living at their craft and be part of the national dialog, back in the day, while others did not have that opportunity. It’s really not possible to go back in time and give others an opportunity to have a larger influence on English arts. Like it or not, influence has got to be a priority criterion for ANYBODY planning a major poets class today. It’s not possible from the information given in the petition to judge whether the curriculum is overweighted with dead white guys or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/36 "2016-06-12T17:15:16Z")
The [curriculum for English Majors](http://english.yale.edu/courses/undergraduate) at Yale includes two semesters of _Readings in American Literature_–also at the 100 level. > [@](#): > > Major works of the American literary tradition in a variety of poetic and narrative forms and in diverse historical contexts. Emphasis on analytical reading and critical writing. Authors may include Melville, Poe, Hawthorne, Bryant, Whitman, Dickinson, Thoreau, Emerson, Douglass, Stowe, Twain, Wharton, Cather, H. Crane, Stevens, Stein, L. Hughes, Paredes, Ellison, O’Connor, Ginsberg, Lowell, O’Hara, M. Robinson, C. McCarthy, Morrison, E. P. Jones, J. Díaz. Seems like a fairly diverse selection to me. (Americo Paredes, a pioneer in Border Studies, came from El Paso.) Wouldn’t a serious student be taking _both_ courses? Other disciples–history & sociology–will help the students learn about topics reflected in literature. Also available to Freshmen > [@](#): > > _Literary Cities–New York, Chicago, San Francisco_: An introduction to American literature, told through the vibrant lives, ethnic diversities, and innovative genres revolving around three urban centers. > [@](#): > > _Science Fiction_–A survey of twentieth- and twenty-first-century science fiction, focusing on how changing technologies produce new ideas about human identity. Emphasis on innovations in science and engineering as well as new forms of social, political, and economic life. Works by Octavia Butler, Philip K. Dick, Ursula Le Guin, and William Gibson. Later courses include _Women Writers from the Restoration to Romanticism_, _Imagining Sexual Politics 1960’s to the Present_,\* Race and Gender in American Literature, American Artists and the African-American Book, The Spectre of Disability, Postcolonial World Literature 1945-Present, American Culture and the Rise of the Environment, Asian-American Literature\*, and _Ralph Ellison in Context_ Plus other general courses that might well include diverse authors. And a really impressive selection of courses on writing. This is an extremely rich program & I doubt two semesters of Dead White Guys will destroy the minds of anyone smart enough to get into Yale. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/37 "2016-06-12T17:53:44Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > Once, just once, I would like to see one of these Universities that face non sense issues such as this reply this way. > > “You not like (insert issue here) then fine. Leave. You saw the course book prior to entering so leave. Be in class tomorrow morning 8 am, or be off campus with your room cleaned out.” I’m getting the impression you don’t have the first idea how higher education actually works. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/38 "2016-06-13T15:33:39Z")
What do these people expect? Our entire culture up to the last century or so came mostly from white men. You can’t go back in time and change that. Would they go to a Chinese university and complain about having to learn about Dead Han Guys? ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/39 "2016-06-13T15:42:36Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > I’m getting the impression you don’t have the first idea how higher education actually works. Nor punctuation or grammar. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008/40 "2016-06-13T19:10:11Z")
One thing that’s been bugging me is this particular bit, underline mine: > [@](#): > > Students who continue on after taking the introductory sequence are ill-prepared to take higher-level courses relating to race, gender, sexuality, ethnicity, nationality, ability, or even to engage with critical theory or secondary scholarship. Given the rest of the sentence, I understand that to be the opposite of disability, rather than, you know, the capacity to do something (in this case, create great works of art). Hopefully whomever wrote it doesn’t think that anything ever written should be studied in a literature class, regardless of whether its writer was able to string half a sentence together. Would Cervantes be worth studying on account of having lost an arm? Why would _that_ make him worth studying as a writer, rather than the quality of his writing? If the students were working on music or painting, would Beethoven and Goya be worth studying on account of eventually getting deaf, rather than for the quality of their work? All three were white men, at least by my standards. Why would the first three be worth studying more than other people, not for the quality of their works, but because of medical conditions? And if they are talking about studying works where a character has a disability such as Lazarillo (whose author is highly likely to also have been a white man, and portrays him/herself as one), is there none among those from the particular class? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yale-english-majors-stop-teaching-us-about-white-male-poets/757008.md?page=3)