I am making a proclamation (what the hell, I’m tired of being moderate): I oppose language being deliberately homogenized. “Y’all” can be superior in some situations (such as with people who are accustomed to it), but “you guys” is the superior choice for those accustomed to it. I want those dialects, dammit.
Now, for example, we already have several adjectives used to describe “a good thing”: “sick”, “sweet”, “awesome”, “wonderful”, incredible", etc.; should we determine which one is “better”, and then everybody should use only that one? Then these words would lose their subtle connotations; the choice of word or phrase can show identification with a social class, age group, or locality. As an example, “sweet” and “sick” mean, as far as I can tell, exactly the same thing among the younger crowd, but “sick” is primarily used among snowboarders and their associates. So if someone chooses to use the word “sick”, I can guess a little about who they hang out with. If everybody uses “y’all”, that phrase will lose its specific connotations with certain locations/groups of people. Neither phrase is confusing or offensive, and I think the use of both adds texture and life to our language. Heck, I usually choose “y’all” when writing, but I choose “you guys” in certain situations when I think it more appropriate; sometimes a two-word phrase fits the sentance better. I’d hate to have that option limited by a sneering attitute towards “you guys”.
But that’s where you’re wrong, in my opinion. Well, half-wrong anyway. It does add texture, but you guys is offensive in a significantly large set of circumstances. “Guys” is too informal a term to reference men and women in professional and business environments. Now, I know. Some of the modern businesses, particularly in the American West and Northwest, are very loosey goosey, and so I think you guys might be appropriate there.
Well, yeah, I guess if you’re writing haiku or trying to be iambic or something.
I don’t think we’re saying to sneer at it, Gaudere. We’re just saying that it is an inferior construct for a whole basketful of reasons. We aren’t saying forbid people from using it. We’re just saying that it’s slang.
People use ain’t, but I don’t think there’s any sort of sneering attitude towards it.
I’m female, and not offended by “you guys”. Has any woman posted here to say she was offended? Heck, I think I’ve been referred to as part of “you guys” several times today. If it is offensive in whatever culture you’re in, then just don’t use it.
And “y’all” is acceptable in formal environments?! Not unless you’re in the South, and maybe not even then! If it is a place too formal for “you guys”, it is too formal for “y’all” The proper formal terms are simply “you” or “all of you”.
Naw, I construct my sentances according to rhythm, so I like having as many words and phrases available as possible. For example, I’d say “enough of that, you guys” because “enough of that, y’all” doesn’t sound as good to me. The stacatto bing bing of “you guys” at the end of the phrase adds emphasis to the rebuke, while the drawl of “y’all” softens it. “Y’all” is good for sarcasm, though.
And I’m saying it’s a dialectical difference that enhances our language. The “inferiorities” you list are so small as to be almost negligible. “Guys” being gender-neutral is weird to you; “y’all” being used by those who are Northerners is weird to me. If you’re used to “you guys” referring to both sexes, as I am, you wouldn’t think of it as being gender specific, whereas “y’all” is strange and awkward to most Northerners; it sounds cutsey and forced. If you’re used to “y’all”, then it sounds normal, and you think “you guys” sounds sexist. ::shrug:: I think to label any perfectly plain-meaning and frequently-used phrase as “inferior” is foolish.
So is “y’all”.
What? People do still sneer at “ain’t”. I use it for a little color occasionally, but a consistent usage of “ain’t” still implies poverty and poor education; not an image people usually wish to portray.
As a native Texan, I feel I must chime in against “y’all”. It just sounds distinctly lower class to me. I avoid it in my own speech.
On the other hand, I must also say that I despise the phrase “you guys”. It doesn’t sound quite so low class or redneck, but it is very grating to the ear, and sounds unnatural.
So, I usually just use “you”, or “you all”. That’s “you all”, two words.
Having lived in Pittsburgh, South Carolina, and various non-pittsburgh cities in the north, I got to hear them all in their native environment.
I think I tend to use “you guys” more than “y’all”, but if I had to pick one to become the standard 2nd person plural pronoun, I’d go with the y’all. It just seem a term this common should be a nice compact word like that. (and yins is just stupid)
I agree with Gauderes usages though. “you guys” is so much nicer when said in anger than “y’all”.
You people must never have been to Pittsburgh, PA. We have another contraction for the gender-neutral “you guys” thing:
“y’unz” – short for “you ones”
What says the court of public opinion??
-DT
PS – I teach a stats course once a week and often will shorten “you all” (as in “You all remember the central limit theorem, right? Right??? Hellooooooo!!”) to something sounding like “y’all.” When I do so, I’m quick to apologize to the class for my trenchant mouth.
TheNerd is onto something here. There has been, historically, a class difference in the usage of y’all in the South. Aristocratic Southerners in the past (not so much today) shunned the use of “y’all” , which was thought of as “common” (read “trashy”), and preferred the more formal “you all”.
Me, I think Southern aristocrats need to get over themselves. Y’all is much handier. Of course, I’m just a trashy hillbilly, so what do I know?
Once again, BJ puts forth the Two Cents from Australia.
I can’t argue for or against “y’all”, but it’s always sounded slightly silly to my ears.
I can say with absolute certainty that the word “guys” is effectively neuter when used in the expressions “you guys”, “hey guys”, “guys, get back to work”, or “what are you guys doing tonight?” It’s a casual, no-hassles way of referring to multiple second persons.
“Guys” can be specifically male, but only in specialised contexts, ie, when used as opposed to “girls”.
With all due respect to Webster’s New World Dictionary, “you-all” isn’t “chiefly” used as a plural, it is exclusively used as a plural. (And it is really grating to hear the phrase used incorrectly in movies and on television.)
“Y’all” and “you-all” are never singular, my friends.
You can find “y’all” in Merriam-Webster, officially listed as a variant of you-all, which I didn’t know was hyphenated.
Main Entry: you-all
Pronunciation: yü-'ol, 'yü-"; 'yol
Function: pronoun
Date: 1824
chiefly Southern : YOU – usually used in addressing two or more persons or sometimes one person as representing also another or others
With all due respect to your SC pals, “y’all” is a contraction of “you all”. Spelling it as “ya’ll” would be like spelling “o’clock” as “oc’lock”.
There is no entry in M-W for “you guys”, which was a bit surprising, since it usually lists slang. The closest thing I could find there, I guess, was yuca, a Hindu world cycle, and yucca, an arborescent plant.
In fairness to Gaudere and the other “you guys” people, M-W does say of “guy”, “used in plural to refer to the members of a group regardless of sex.” Of course, that’s the third definition, after number 1, “often capitalized : a grotesque effigy of Guy Fawkes traditionally displayed and burned in England on Guy Fawkes Day” and number 2, “chiefly British : a person of grotesque appearance”.
Now wait a minute. Libertarian cited Merriam-Webster as containing the following entry:
My question is: how the heck did they come up with a date as specific as “1824”? Did someone proudly record the first use of the phrase:
I’m guessing that maybe 1824 is the first known written example of the phrase, but I’ll wager it was used before that. (In fact, I still maintain -as I suggested in an earlier thread- that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson would have spoken with southern accents.)
Folks, Aha couldn’t stand it any longer, I guess, he’s started a thread in MPSIMS:
“Where Ya’ll From” He’s from Southern Oklahoma, maybe that doesn’t count.
Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley
