Yamato vs. the Bismark

I don’t really disagree with anything you’ve said. I may have quibbles here and there, but that’s probably at least as much due to my enjoyment of the role of Devil’s Advocate as anything more serious.

One point I will emphasize, though: It’s worth remembering, as you point out, that Bismark did phenomenally well putting ordinance on target. Nor was that simply a trait of that ship - the sinking of HMS Glorious by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau began with hits at a range of just over 24,000 meters.
I’m not much of a fan of Yamato. While she was an impressive and beautiful vessel, I am inclined to discount her as a warship for some serious flaws: the relative lack of effective AAA being the largest. (Yeah! You can use your main battery for AA fire with giant shotgun shells, but you’re still looking at a horrid rate of fire for that, which does little to provide effective AA fire.) For the IJN, of all people, to ignore the threat of air power is taking irony to new levels.

Further, one of the things about damage control is that a ship’s design counts a lot, but even more what counts is the skill and determination of the ship’s crew to fight that damage. Bismark’s crew did very well there, dealing with both the damage from the Battle of Denmark Strait, and latter in her final engagement. It’s hard to say how well Yamato’s crew did in the pounding she took, but looking at her near sister Shinano’s fate, I think that there’s room to question how effectively Yamoto’s crew would have been able to deal with damage.

You take that back! :smiley:
More seriously, for the Kriegsmarine, I agree that the push for the very limited number of major surface combatants was a poor decision from the standpoint of effective use of materials. Hell’s bells, even had the famous Graf Zeppelin been completed, and allowed to have an air wing, it too would have been too little, too late. Even at the time that Bismark was laid down that seems to me as through it should have been obvious that the Kriegsmarine could not face the Royal Navy on their terms and come out ahead. For that matter, sending out a battleship, be she ever so fast, to raid merchant shipping seems a colossal waste.

I’m less convinced that, at the time they were laid down, the IJN was making a mistake to build battleships instead of more fleet carriers, or submarines.

First, because the IJN never did use their submarine forces effectively. And equal tonnage of submarines for the IJN would not have added anything to the Japanese war effort, because the will to use them as effective combatant vessels just wasn’t there. For a number of reasons, including the Japanese fetishism of the military junta’s interpretation of Bushido, it wasn’t consider proper fighting to consider unrestricted submarine warfare as a strategic operational stance. My understanding is that the Japanese used their submarines more for reconnaissance, and attacks on US warships. The loss of Yorktown and Wasp to submarine attacks were very painful - but were not enough, by themselves, to do much beyond slow US operations.

Secondly, because the IJN did have a battleship fleet, they could actually meet other battleship forces head to head, and did so. Furthermore, while the carrier group was hugely effective in WWII, it was not an unassailable superiority. HMS Glorious is a good example of what happened when a carrier force gets cocky around major surface combatants. There weren’t many battleship on battleship fleet actions in the Pacific, but they did happen, and were pivotal battles

Of course, the most pivotal battleship action I can think of now, is one where the IJN failed to follow up on catching a carrier and amphibious force without adequate cover. That the IJN’s force estimates were so far off as to allow Kurita to be bluffed off by destroyer escorts doesn’t change that the Battle off Samar had every potential to have been a major strategic victory for the IJN, as well as a tactical victory.

Obviously, the conversion of the incomplete Shinano to a fleet carrier configuration emphasizes that after Midway the IJN agreed with you that they needed to rebuild their fleet carrier arm.

One imponderable, however, is to consider to what degree both the Reich and the Japanese junta used such prestige projects to solidify support and morale within their nations as a whole. It’s comparatively easy to compare and contrast military effectiveness of a warship. There is room for debate, of course, but at least you can point to easily quantified characteristics, and then start to debate their importance from there. Trying to do the same for something so amorphous as support for the government or civilian morale is getting into the same sort of territory as trying to debate the number of angels who may dance on the head of a pin.

agree. one reason why it’s a yamato vs bismark match-up is, aside from playing on the german’s strength, i’m also counting on handicaps the japanese ship carried --something universally agreed. but we saw that in battle, you don’t win on specs. to a give the bismark a better-than 50% chance of victory, she has to be skippered by the god of war himself. on the other hand, the yamato, under a competent captain, needs to get lucky only once or twice.

to have a new jersey vs bismark discussion will be too one-side as the new jersey has too many excellent proprietary features while the bismark is an older design with too many flaws.

as to the strategic aspect of naval units acquistion by both germans and japanese, it’s still cloudy to me. i saw the german navy a bit like the US navy right after pearl harbor. obviously out-gunned. its strategy was clear: strike back immediately. a few months after pearl, the USN launced several modern fletcher-class destroyers to attack japanese shipping (destroyers being the easiest to roll out.) let production of larget ships of the line roll out slowly.

Crew training should be considered.

The Yamato’s design is (or should be) somewhat in question here. Their combat effectiveness notwithstanding, the Shinano, Yamato’s sister ship (converted to an aircraft carrier during construction) sank after being hit by a mere four torpedos. The Yamato and Musashi took much more, but they may not have been hit in the right place. Who’s to say?

On the other hand, the Bismarck was absolutely pounded and it still floated. It was all but destroyed and it still hadn’t been sunk. That’s not to mention its combat performance which, while very short, was exemplary given that the entire Royal Navy was aimed at it. No ship could survive that kind of attention for very long.

On spec, the Yamato wins. Based on actual performance, Bismarck wins. And the Iowas take them both.

This, neither the Yamatos nor the Bismarks achieved anything that had any real impact on the war. Bismark was crippled by a torpedo hit from a biplane, and Yamato was forced to retreat to avoid a couple of torpedoes the only time she was involved in a surface action.

Not true, most battleships were armoured to give a zone of immunity against guns of their own size. Only the vital parts of the ship were armoured in this manner. This is what a typical armouring scheme looked like (*bottom right). Notice how little of the ship is actually armoured.

In a straight fight, Bismark has virtually no chance against Yamato, Bismark’s shells cannot penetrate her armoured citadel at battle ranges. Yamato can punch right through the armoured belt and put shells into the boilers, engines and magazines of Bismark. Bismark’s only chance is if lucky hits disable fire control or jam turrets.

Bismark proved difficult to sink, but was quickly disabled by 14 and 16 inch shell hits in her final action.

That’s not a valid comparison, the Shinano was not properly worked up. The crew was not trained, and the ship had not been properly tested. Both Yamato and Musashi absorbed a huge number of bomb and torpedo hits before sinking, more than any other ship.

actually there’s an easier way to kill a battleship than drilling a shell through its magazine: fire. that’s a BB’s worse nightmare. secondary battery fire, aerial bombs and torpedos can do this to the yamato. a battleship is not a floating anvil.

Nitpick: “Bismarck,” not Bismark, named after Otto von Bismarck former Chancellor of Germany. “Bismarck” is also the correct spelling of the capital of North Dakota; the city is also named after the German chancellor.

From memory, I don’t believe any dreadnought battleship was lost in action due to a fire, so that isn’t very plausible. Only a handful of battleships have ever actually been sunk by gunfire, most were sunk by underwater explosions.

The Yamato’s 18" guns were more of a handicap than an advantage. 16" guns were about the limit of WWII technology-the optimum size was about 16"-by going to 18", the non-warhead weight of the shell was higher, and the rate of fire was much reduced. Plus, the huge fuel consumption of the Yamato class BBs was a definite disadvantage-the ship could not go on extended high-speed patrols without a tanker nearby.
Both the Yamato and the Musashi represented a huge waste of resources, for a poor return.

There is no reason to think of Yamato’s guns as a handicap in a battleship encounter. The first practical 18" gun was developed twenty years earlier in WW1. It certainly wasn’t at the limits of WW2 technology. Higher shell weight is an advantage, not a disadvantage. Armour piercing shells fired by battleships were basically huge lumps of metal with realtively small bursting charges. Armour penetration is a factor of shell weight and muzzle velocity. There is little point in increasing the size of the warhead if the shell does not penetrate the armour.

Yes, which is part of the reason they sat idle for much of the war.

No argument there.

armor is not all it’s cracked up to be. battleships will engage within 20,000 meters and at that maximum distance, the bismarck’s 15" will penetrate 19" of vertical armor coming in at a slant less than 15 degrees. that’s thicker than anything the yamato has for the greater part of its structure. the yamato of course can punch through 22 inches at 20,000 meter but it will require a much lower slant. it’s not true that a battlship is proofed against its own gun. the sheer weight and velocity of a mach 2 shell is well in excess of the compressive strength of armor whose thickness is equal or even slightly greater than shell caliber.

given this, i’m certain small differences (< 20%) in gun caliber and practical armor has little importance. what matters, it seems, it who gets in the first hit. and my bet is bismarck.

both the yamato and musashi took more than 18 aerial bombs, knocking out many of their AA batteries. criticizing their weak AA is pointless if you have more than 200 attack planes pressing on. after the bombs did their job of knocking out soft targets above deck, all that was left was to lob at least ten torpedoes at them.

Granted that facts&figures about the Shinano are not necessarily relevant to the Yamato and Musashi, there are a couple rattling around in my brain pan that might be of interest. First, not only was she “not properly worked up,” she was being moved to complete her fitting out in a location that was more protected from air strikes; and second, while her watertight hatches were on board, many of them had not yet been installed. Internally, she leaked like the proverbial sieve.

Had she been completed and had even a moderately competent ship’s company, it’s doubtful that the Archerfish’s four torpedoes alone would have sunk her. As it was, she had perhaps the shortest sea life of any modern warship.

Worth noting, it’s hard to evaluate the effectiveness of the shells without knowing more about them then just their diameter. A 9mm pistol round is far thicker than a 5.56 NATO rifle round, but one of these *will *penetrate a kevlar vest and the other very likely will not.

I seem to recall (“anecdote”, of course, being the singular form of “data”) that while the Yamato’s guns had a wider diameter than typical American guns, their actual muzzle velocity was a good bit lower, making them less effective. And the latest American battleships, such as the Iowa class, did indeed fire 18 inch shells, as I recall. They presumably made up for the weight disadvantage of such large guns by carrying fewer of them (nine 18" rifles in three turrets on the WWII Iowas, as opposed to, for example, ten 14" rifles in five turrets for the New York class of WWI.)

The smartass in me wants to note that the Bismark was much faster. She beat the Yamato to the bottom of the sea by several years. :smiley:

the iowas did not mount 18.1 inch guns, nor were the planned successors (montana class.)

18.1-inch caliber was by no means the ultimate ship-mounted high velocity gun caliber. a 20-inch gun with similar performance was already feasible. that was the next evolution for the japanese (‘super-yamato’ armed with 4 to 6 20-inch guns.)

the US montana class, designed to really slug it out in line formation, was to mount 12 16-inch guns (the panama canal gave design limitations.) i suppose if the war had dragged on, they would have been built and the USN would consider 18.1 inches for the next generation or even jump to 20-inch guns. the german design H-44 was to have 8 20-inchers and a have a displacement of more than 120,000 tonnes. NB: the bismarck was H-38.

my vote for meanest “old” battleship during WW2 would be the uss new mexico. laid out in 1915, she mounted 12 14-inch guns and could have pulverised any battleship it faced (assuming the other guy didn’t shoot back LOL!) her armor was adequate but speed was only 21 knots. that’s one thing with american battleships. in the speed-armor-firepower triad, they would soonest sacrifice speed. the iowas are a notable deviation.

Just to tease it out a bit, Bismark was damaged (if not disabled) by two 14 inche shells from Prince of Wales. Later an 18 inch torpedo caused damage that enabled her to be caught and destroyed by two battleships which she didn’t score a hit on. (For various reasons. I alsoacknowledge there were sundry other British ships there).

Andmac-bolan, oldest “mean” battleship in WW2 was undoubtedly “Warspite”. Service record over two wars that any other battleship would find it difficult to match. :slight_smile:

hit during jutland, smashed german destroyers at narvik, co-record holder of the longest gun hit at 26,000 yards against the guilio cesar, had a smashing good time at shore bombardment. hmmm…

And for free you get an O/T rant about Deep sea Mysteries.

Last night I watched a doco about HMS Audacious which hit a mine in 1914 and sank. Several times they mentioned that she was considered “unsinkable”, a claim which was nonsense. Capital ship explosions were known in several navies and punishment from other vessels of a similar build (or mines) could sink them. They were not considered her unsinkable.

Secondly, it was mentioned that she was the most powerful battleship afloat. Again garbage, her class had been replaced by the iron Duke class alone.

Meh. Rave over. Resume normal transmission.

my own rant is the fact that battleships are perfect for asymetrical warfare these days but their operating costs are unbelievable. anything from plying around the horn of africa to bombarding some misbehaving country somewhere.

in the past 40 years, the US navy has used some destroyers against iran but mainly iowa-class battleships to come within 20 miles of a hostile shore (discounting submarines.)

fans of the iowa, you’ll like this picture. a real one-of-a-kind.